Saturday, November 19, 2011

What You Can't Discuss (Updated)

Karam

Among progressive-left racists there are any number of topics around the long Arab war against the Jews that are entirely verboten. Here is a short list of things that one is not allowed to discuss on places like Daily Kos.

1) The centuries of Jewish dhimmitude under the boot of Islamic imperialism.

2) The recent construction of "Palestinian" identity, its connection to Soviet Communism, and how it is that this is an Arab people with a Roman name that refers to Greeks.

3) Arab and Palestinian Koranically-based genocidal racism as the fundamental source of the conflict.

4) The ways in which contemporary progressive anti-Zionism serves as a cloak for gross anti-Semitism.

5) The Palestinian theft and appropriation of Jewish history.

6) Pallywood.

7) The historical connections between the Nazis, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Palestinian national movement.

8) The perpetual refusal of the local Arabs to accept a state for themselves in peace next to the Jewish one.

Since these are things which are verboten on the racist progressive-left, I think that these are things very much in need of discussion.

I imagine that you guys could add to this list if you wanted to, so if anyone has any ideas on additions, please let me know.

Update:

In the comments, my partners Doodad and oldschooltwentysix have come up with an additional three topics, around the subject of I-P, that tend to be verboten in progressive-left circles.

These are:

9) The progressive portrayal of terrorists as those fighting a righteous war of resistance.

10) The Arab-Palestinian indoctrination of children with Jew hate.

Doodad put it somewhat differently, but I think the above represents fair characterization.

11) Human rights violations against women and children in the Muslim Middle East. (oldschooltwentysix)

The reason that these topics are verboten in progressive-left venues is because any discussion of them undermines the "Palestinian narrative" of perpetual victimhood which they are using like a club against the Jewish state in order to delegitimize it in preparation for its eventual dissolution.

And that's precisely why we need to discuss it.

16 comments:

  1. 9) The celebration of terrorists

    10)The indoctrination of children with Jew hate.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Excellent!

    Although I think that I would frame it just a little different.

    Say, the portrayal of terrorists as those fighting a righteous war of resistance.

    The Arab-Palestinian indoctrination of children with Jew hate.

    Very good.

    Thanks, Doodad.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I'll discuss a few of them you did list.

    1. The centuries of Jewish dhimmitude under the boot of Islamic imperialism.

    If we Jews are stuck in the past, how can you possibly expect Palestinians to move forward? I'm not disputing that the past is real, or suggesting that it should be forgotten. Only that if you want a different middle-east, you must accept that a different middle-east is possible.

    2. The recent construction of "Palestinian" identity, its connection to Soviet Communism, and the unusual fact that this is an Arab people with a Roman name that refers to Greeks.

    The Palestinians are a people. Regardless of how long they have either self-identified as such or been identified as a people by others. You protest loudly when the peoplehood of Jews is questioned. Yet I infer by your repeatedly bringing it up that you have doubts about the peoplehood of the Palestinians. I'm not sure exactly what the number is, but there are somewhere around 4 million people who are Arabs, live in and around the West Bank and Gaza, belong to no other country or ethnic population and have adopted the name Palestinian. You may find it an inconvenient piece of history, but it is real. Stop questioning it.

    7. The historical connections between the Nazis, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Palestinian national movement.

    See my response to 1 above. The connection of Germany to the Nazis is much more real, much more concrete. I'm not diputing the influence Hitler had in the middle east. As you may have picked from my writings before, I was once (before at least some of the readers her were born) a member of a terrorist organization. That organization still exists. Yet they now denounce terror as a tactic. Are they still the same organization they were when they were led by racist zealots who believed that terrorism was rightous? Am I still a terrorist?

    I am not telling you to move on, that history is unimportant. I am asking, in the interest of an Israel that can live in peace with it's neighbors, to move forward.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Stuart,

    You need to address reality. Looking forward is great, but there are 300 million Arabs. If only 5% see Jews as dhimmis, that is more than all the Jews worldwide. Then consider how many Muslims there are. If you have an idea how to change this dynamic, I'd be interested to hear. It's not Jews living in the past, but perhaps the adversaries.

    As to a Palestinian people, what is wrong with discussion of its evolution? Of course, this people exists today, but is it indigenous? Do you think most people know about the evolution?

    It's not about the Nazi connection per se, although you seem to skip by the Mufti and Muslim Brotherhood. It's the antisemitism of the Nazis that conjoined with Islamic antisemitism. Considering the numbers game referred to above, when one hears genocidal calls, relying on both aspects of antisemitism, then perhaps it is foolish to move forward as if history has no bearing on the future.

    As for topics here, I believe that the human rights violations toward women and children are worth discussion as well, and slavery, especially as these relate to the the international human rights treaties.

    It is also worth noting the different interpretations of human rights between Islam and the West, as they are fundamentally different.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Stuart, the present day reality is that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wish her destruction. All you have to do is listen to what they say (and do.) Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamists and Jihdists in other neighboring countries,etc. Nuke seeking Iran is not shy about its intentions.

    Seems to me that particular crowd needs to come to an understanding that it is time to move forward before anything will happen in the way of peace with Israel who has already come a long way forward looking at the historical record. Abbas may not still be a terrorist but he still pays the buggers, buys them housing and names streets and buildings after them. See the difference?

    ReplyDelete
  6. "It is also worth noting the different interpretations of human rights between Islam and the West, as they are fundamentally different."

    Really important point. Also, this will form the basis of much future hostility between the two civilizations. Portions of each see the other as barbaric; this is unlikely to change soon. It may even get worse as the Arab Spring becomes sharia friendly Arab Winter.

    ReplyDelete
  7. oldschool ...

    I am addressing reality. If 5% of a group believes in something, don't attribute that belief to the entire group. Doing so is the genesis of all bigotry.

    There is nothing wrong with discussing the origin of the Palestinians as a people. But doing so in the context the conflict between the Israelis and the Palistinians is questioning their very existence. There is no other reason to include it in that discussion.

    Whether they are indiginous is a moot point. As moot as the discussion whether Jews are indiginous to that land. Jews live there. Palestinians live there. That's the reality. It's the Hatfields and the McCoys. It's my land because my daddy fought the Indians for it and won is not a very good argument. In the US we have laws and deeds and titles that are only as valid as the body politic in the region. Rules that don't exist in diputed territory. In the long run land is only for rent, it doesn't rightfully "belong" to anyone.

    I'm not skipping by the Mufti or the Muslim Brotherhood. The Mufti is long dead. The Muslim Brotherhood may or may not be the same organization of its origin. Any more than the JDL is the same organization of its origin. Both say they are not. Until there is evidence to the contrary, I'm not sure why anyone should argue differently. That doesn't mean abandon vigilence. Ever.

    And doodad...

    I agree entirely with regards to Hamas, Hesbollah and other organizations which clearly wish for the destruction of Israel, and most particularly those in control of the Iranian government. Let's just avoid extending the evil sought by those organizations and entities to all Palestinians. Peace with the Palestinians will go a long way towards rendering those who wish for Israel's destruction irrelevant. Dehumanizing them (the Palestinian people) is not a path to peace.

    ReplyDelete
  8. To all Palestinians of course not. But to enough? Yes, and certainly to those with the ordinance and the will. I would hope that no disclaimer is needed among friends here when we obviously refer to that group and not "all," Palestinians.

    Now, are there masses of Palestinians unknown to us who crave peace and decry the violence and supremacy of their rulers and violent brethren? Perhaps. I have never seen any palpable evidence of their existence; no marching groups, bloggers, intelligentsia writing in major or even minor papers, mags, etc.

    Nevertheless, I am willing to concede that there may be some hidden silent majority there. How do we unleash them?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Stuart,

    Did I say that ALL Arabs or Muslims maintain that belief? I specifically limited my comment to 5%. I thought I was being conservative at that! It's hard to have discussion in the face of mischaracterization.

    I KNOW that Palestinians exist. I AM dealing with it. Why do you assume I do not? Understanding the evolution goes to the abuse of a narrative to make Jews look evil, and the question their peoplehood. Can you understand that? Or can I assume that you do not know why people raise the matter?

    I further understand the Mufti is no longer around. The point was that Arabs and Islam have their own history of persecution against Jews that readily conjoined with the European variety. Today it still echoes. Many people cannot hear, however.

    Why should we look past instances that evidence a significant undercurrent that desires and intends to eliminate Jews who are seen as an existential threat to humankind? Not to mention the threat posed to Western values.

    Like someone else indicated, which side is really stuck in the past? Imagine the benefits that might have resulted for all, but for Arab aggression and intransigence against a people they far outnumber and historically victimized as inferior under God.

    ReplyDelete
  10. That's # 11.

    Human rights violations against women and children in the Muslim Middle East.

    Thanks, school.

    btw, the point of discussing these things is to undermine the "Palestinian narrative" of perpetual victim-hood with some historical analysis that belies the notion.

    It's hard to make the case that the Palestinians are nothing but miserable victims of the Jews when they sided with the Nazis, sought to bring Nazi-style death camps to Palestine, have in Gaza embraced a fascist organization that calls for the genocide of the Jews, and continues to teach their children hatred toward us.

    That's part of the reason why it is important to discuss these things, because decades of Arab propaganda has succeeded in convincing many, many western liberals that the Jewish state is a racist, fascist, colonialist, imperialist, racist monstrosity that needs to be put down like a rabid dog and that the Palestinians are entirely innocent little bunny rabits.

    It isn't and they're not.

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  11. Also think the conflict between the Universal and Cairo Declarations is very important.

    It gets to the very heart of what is going on.

    Members of the OIC do not believe in universal human rights.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Meanwhile the Egyptians are planning a "million man march" to protest the "Judaization" of Jerusalem., the ancient capital of the Jewish people.

    Better not to say anything about this, tho.

    Better to just be quiet and let the roll right over us.

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  13. Jerusalem. You mean that city that is not mentioned even ONCE in the Koran but over 600 times in the bible.

    (sorry, question mark key not working)

    ReplyDelete
  14. Another goodie and one that I have suggested before. Peace through victory.

    By now, Israel, at the urging and bullying of the world, has tried pretty much every conceivable idea and option for achieving
    tranquility and reconciliation with the Hamas, except for one......There is only one strategy for dealing with the Hamas that Israel has
    never attempted. That untried strategy is victory. Israel has never seriously attempted to achieve peace and tranquility with the Gaza
    Palestinians by means of victory. This is somewhat strange, since it is hard to think of any other war that did not end in peace only after victory.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Peace through victory?

    Now, there's a novel idea.

    Of course, the very notion of it is entirely anethema when it comes to the Jews. The world will never allow Israel to actually win the conflict, but will insist that we must allow the local Arabs to continue trying to kill us.

    Anything else is considered immoral.

    ReplyDelete