tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post5362379346512056832..comments2024-01-02T02:18:30.960-08:00Comments on Israel Thrives: Mets102 Bravely Goes After the Westboro Baptist ChurchMike L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-46038445755388095582012-05-17T23:16:24.709-07:002012-05-17T23:16:24.709-07:00It's similar to the issues we have discussed b...It's similar to the issues we have discussed before with respect to Zionism/nationalism/liberty versus progressivism/universalism/equality.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-49059981204981056682012-05-17T22:59:00.949-07:002012-05-17T22:59:00.949-07:00School,
this is interesting:
I think that progr...School, <br /><br />this is interesting:<br /><br /><i><b>I think that progressivism as practiced is not compatible with Zionism as practiced...</b></i><br /><br />This is an interesting notion.<br /><br />Tell us why you think so.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-50039270388729299132012-05-17T22:44:55.298-07:002012-05-17T22:44:55.298-07:00I just think it's more a case of immaturity th...I just think it's more a case of immaturity than anything else, exacerbated by inability to let even small things go.<br /><br />He spent so much time arguing with me that my comments did not count because I did not confine myself to what you said, although I raised a separate, independent issue that also came solely from his words.<br /><br />He just could not let his teeth let go.<br /><br />Not to mention the inclusion of pejoratives.<br /><br />I am no angel here, but think both of you would do better by taking a step back.<br /><br />On a larger level, gratuitous and overpersonal posts and remarks hurt the blog. I think it's better to argue against the point he makes. Making it so much about him is a distraction.<br /><br />This is the problem with the blogosphere from all sides, the way people talk about each other, over and above the issues, that makes a more poisoned environment. <br /><br />I would not want to be in VB's position because I think that progressivism as practiced is not compatible with Zionism as practiced, and he tries to walk a tightrope balanced by outmoded concepts. This is in addition to the maturity deficit that makes it very hard to communicate overall.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-79231537846025185472012-05-17T22:07:20.830-07:002012-05-17T22:07:20.830-07:00The guy is malicious, irrational, and banned.
Eno...The guy is malicious, irrational, and banned.<br /><br />Enough is enough of this.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-51137447314846919942012-05-17T22:05:42.010-07:002012-05-17T22:05:42.010-07:00Do people in Israel not understand the competing n...Do people in Israel not understand the competing narratives here?<br /><br />To my mind, the Israeli narrative accounts for the Palestinian version of history. Who could not know it? It's plastered everywhere. In Israel, an open society, different narratives can be freely disseminated. Is there doubt that this is true? Can the Jewish narrative be disseminated in any Arab/Muslim society?<br /><br />The Israeli narrative rejects the Palestinian because the latter is not factually accurate and premised by the intention to destroy Israel and even Jews. Does anyone dispute that this is the intention?<br /><br />What is sought to be gained from a teaching exercise of subject matter that Jews in Israel know full well from experience and current reality? That is what I would most like to know, just what are Israelis not now understanding?<br /><br />Israel has a unity government. So far as I know, most Israelis support Netanyahu's policies when it comes to these issues. Is it right to support democracy in Egypt, but not Israel?oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-6479965132972848362012-05-17T21:29:37.590-07:002012-05-17T21:29:37.590-07:00What I cannot figure out is whether you are being ...What I cannot figure out is whether you are being dishonest or just plain dumb.<br /><br />You made a statement.<br /><br />Words have meaning.<br /><br />This is what you said:<br /><br /><b><i>I wrote a diary advocating the teaching of the Palestinian version of history as a addition to teaching of the Israeli narrative so that people in Israel understand competing narratives.</i></b><br /><br />If you honestly stand by those words this can only mean that you actually would like to see Jewish kids in Israel taught the "Palestinian version of history."<br /><br />What exactly do you think that the "Palestinian version of history" consists of, VB?<br /><br />I have to say, tho, I find you very tiresome, because I do not believe that you are being honest. <br /><br />You say "X" and then I say that you say "X" and then you call me a liar.<br /><br />It's just flat-out dishonest.<br /><br />You're a fraud.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-38471588571522139582012-05-17T20:50:45.383-07:002012-05-17T20:50:45.383-07:00LOL Mike... I stand by my statement.. It is your i...LOL Mike... I stand by my statement.. It is your interpretation of it that boggles the mind. How you get from point A to point Z is beyond me. But hey... have at it.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-76617585356172611422012-05-17T16:24:23.801-07:002012-05-17T16:24:23.801-07:00Well cancel that "relatively civil" part...Well cancel that "relatively civil" part. <br /><br />Dude, you are out of your mind. Completely and totally nuts. We are talking on a whole 'nother plane of crazy. You post that on your front page completely misinterpreting everything and why... because you are bat-shit insane. <br /><br />You think, I want people to learn different narratives so I can tell Israelis they are wrong? Are you high when you type this shit? Seriously, how fucked up do you have to be to have that interpretation of what I said? There are not enough drugs in the world that can do that.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-1949884311735287252012-05-16T23:40:37.060-07:002012-05-16T23:40:37.060-07:00Buck up and deal? Is that more "General Inter...Buck up and deal? Is that more "General Internet Protocol"? Do you have even a clue how foolish you sound with these remarks?oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-6941770470782517682012-05-16T22:32:12.866-07:002012-05-16T22:32:12.866-07:00Oh, and according to your first comment you "...Oh, and according to your first comment you <i>"wrote a diary advocating the teaching of the Palestinian version of history as a addition to teaching of the Israeli narrative so that people in Israel understand competing narratives. It is how you build bridges."</i><br /><br />I commented how ironic it is how intolerant you are to competing narratives.<br /><br />And you wet your pants with some dumb argument about whether you "espoused teaching the Palestinian narrative as a correction to 'actual history.'" A non-issue, certainly not worth all the energy you put into it.<br /><br />The fact remains that you practice a double standard, exactly as I said, even if I breach what matters most to you, internet protocol. Good to see you have your priorities straight!oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-41711746531891637002012-05-16T22:17:15.198-07:002012-05-16T22:17:15.198-07:00That you must try and control everything, includin...That you must try and control everything, including internet protocol, is simply wild.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-35268836103583117892012-05-16T21:42:49.963-07:002012-05-16T21:42:49.963-07:00I think it is important for Israelis to understand...I think it is important for Israelis to understand how others see them particularly the Palestinians. It is the first step towards building bridges. <strong>IF you notice in that diary, I also said it is important for the Palestinians to learn the Israeli Narrative, including the Holocaust and role that they played in it.</strong> That too goes a long way to building bridges. <br /><br />I honestly believe your narrative is simplistic and cartoonish. And yes, their narrative does unfairly paint the Israelis in a negative light and is also simplistic and cartoonish and that is why I think they need to learn our narrative. <br /><br />Now to my original point. Here is the definition of "corrective": <br /><br /><em>Adjective: Designed to correct or counteract something harmful or undesirable.<br /> <br />Noun:A thing intended to correct or counteract something else.</em><br /><br />I don't think this at all. I think it is important to present viewpoints and make decisions from there. I don't think the Palestinian Narrative "corrects" the Israeli Narrative. SO I believe you mischaracterized my point of view. <br /><br />Anyway, I do appreciate your relatively civil answer and while I disagree with your characterization at least you attempted to explain. HENCE, you get my civil response.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-69682066208302782002012-05-16T21:15:18.391-07:002012-05-16T21:15:18.391-07:00I find it fascinating that you think that I am som...I find it fascinating that you think that I am somehow misrepresenting your idea, when all I am doing is trying to clarify it and understand it.<br /><br />You said this:<br /><br /><b>I wrote a diary advocating the teaching of the Palestinian version of history as a addition to teaching of the Israeli narrative so that people in Israel understand competing narratives. It is how you build bridges.</b><br /><br />And, needless to say, if you do not want the Palestinian narrative taught as a corrective to the regular curriculum, then why do you want it taught at all?<br /><br />You seem to think that the idea of "corrective" means replacement of. It doesn't. What it means is fixing something that is in need of correction.<br /><br />But I honestly do not care about the sophistry that you are bringing to this discussion. I want to stay directly on the point and the point is that you honestly think that Israeli high school kids should be taught the Palestinian narrative.<br /><br />You can argue why you think this is beneficial, as a "bridge builder," and that is fine. I just want it clear that you honestly want Jewish Israeli high school kids to learn a "competing narrative" of Israeli history that suggests that Israel is a racist, colonialist, imperialist, apartheid state that was born out of the "ethnic cleansing" of the indigenous Palestinian population.<br /><br />In any case, "sheer" is correct.<br /><br />I also get "then" and "than" confused if I type too fast.<br /><br />"Their" and "there" is also sometimes a problem.<br /><br />Homophones are not my friend.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-33372010736528857802012-05-16T21:04:21.074-07:002012-05-16T21:04:21.074-07:00Heh... should have been "General internet pro...Heh... should have been "General internet protocol". I like to think I live on Earth. What planet do you live on? Do people there always speak in non-sequitors? <br /><br />Again... Your desperate twisting to cover for your friend is noble. And hey... I give you credit, believe me. Knowing you support a lie and still failing to admit it, though you are busted time and time again for that support speaks to a certain tenacity. BUT....<br /><br />I wrote a comment in response to Mike. YOU... responded with a complete non-sequitor trying to show up my perceived shortcomings. Very Rovian of you (so you can pat yourself on the back for a good copy of the master himself). However, unlike the MSM, I will not allow you to distract from the point. <br /><br />Now, for the upteenth time do you or do you not agree with Mike when he said that I said the Palestinian narrative should be taught as a "corrective" to the Israeli narrative. If so, please provide examples from the diary I wrote. If not, then why the hell did you waste our time with your constant obfuscation? <br /><br />That was all I really came into clear up. Your weird desire to engage in character assasination rather than own up the fact that your good buddy made a statement about me that was false has been sad and pathetic.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-32177378560449853472012-05-16T20:53:07.548-07:002012-05-16T20:53:07.548-07:00Isn't it "Sheer...." not "Shear...Isn't it "Sheer...." not "Shear"? I think Shear Genius is a hair salon.<br /><br />So, will you admit that I NEVER said that the Palestinian Narrative should be taught as a "corrective" to the Israeli Narrative? Can we agree on that. <br /><br />As to your comment... Why not teach Israeli kids what the Palestinians believe? Why not expose them to what they say? These kids have to go into the Territories and run check points, Carry out Night Raids, make life and death determinations in dealing with the local population. Don't you think that these soldiers should understand the Population they occupy? <br /><br />Of course teaching them your cartoon version would not really be the way to do it. You do know there were competitors to the al-Huessani's right? You have heard of the Nussessibeh clan? You do know that NOT all the Arabs sided with the Nazi's. Jordan's Arab Legion was trained and allied to the Brits. in WWII. <br /><br />How about we get on with what I really said. <br /><br />Mike, I am curious. Why did you start this in the first place? You knew I would respond to your misrepresentation. Here is what I don't get. Why would you do that? What good does it do you? Does misrepresenting / lying about me fill you with that much joy? <br /><br />Oh btw, did you figure out what I said to you in Hebrew.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-29512492932388947422012-05-16T20:41:11.624-07:002012-05-16T20:41:11.624-07:00So I guess standing up for people telling the trut...So I guess standing up for people telling the truth is a bad thing... <br /><br />But... Doodad you are right... I did write that. I should have stuck to it. I just don't like being lied about. Silly me.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-8241804511376298182012-05-16T20:40:50.903-07:002012-05-16T20:40:50.903-07:00One more thing:
General intent protocol? What pla...One more thing:<br /><br />General intent protocol? What planet are you on? <br /><br />Aside from the fact that the language WAS in your comment. They are YOUR OWN WORDS. That is indisputable FACT.<br /><br />Your need to engage in name calling shows how juvenile you are.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-18486273211779419742012-05-16T20:34:33.332-07:002012-05-16T20:34:33.332-07:00You are too wrapped in trying to control everythin...You are too wrapped in trying to control everything that you do not realize that you have already buried yourself.<br /><br />I did not try to say that it had anything to do with your response to Mike.<br /><br />That said, you quoted your words from the diary, and the disconnect became apparent.<br /><br />Jewish school kids should be taught to see different side, but you treat other sides with contempt.<br /><br />It's obvious that you practice a double standard!oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-72323451327787914132012-05-16T19:45:39.088-07:002012-05-16T19:45:39.088-07:00"You are completely right downsouth and I am ..."You are completely right downsouth and I am done with him and his hate site." <br /><br />"And yes from here on in I will be ignoring his blog........ But yeah - I am done with the hate site. I don't really need to see a site that is so very hateful on a regular basis. I will leave that for the Republicans and their supporters that frequent that place."<br /><br />Volley.....read your own words.Doodadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349941094682080146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-85315472748942936092012-05-16T18:59:33.990-07:002012-05-16T18:59:33.990-07:00AHAHAHAHA nice try Mike.... So now kids in High Sc...AHAHAHAHA nice try Mike.... So now kids in High School are "little Kids"... I bet they would disagree with you there. ROFL. <br /><br />Mike, you crack me up. You are like a parody of Im Tirtzu. But back to the original question.... <br /><br />You claimed that I said that I wanted to see the Palestinian Narrative taught as a "corrective" to the Israeli Narrative - can you or can you not support that. I will be glad to accept your apology if you can "man up" and do the right thing (which is admit you lied and say "sorry"). Granted I would be surprised but hey miracles do happen. <br /><br />As too your claim. Heh... I guess when does Snidely Whiplash jump out and tie Nell to the train tracks. You boil their narrative down to one sentence that totally cartoonizes what happened. Has your time at Mondoweiss deadened your brain that much? <br /><br />SO... nice try at diversion but I'm sorry - you failed. Mazel tov yoter b'Pa'am haba... You are such an expert in Israel - figure out what I just said. ;-)volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-71078984306270279422012-05-16T17:17:16.583-07:002012-05-16T17:17:16.583-07:00Your comment is a complete non-sequitor. It has ab...Your comment is a complete non-sequitor. It has absolutely nothing to do with my response to Mike. Nothing whatsoever. <br /><br />Again... for all to see... Mike wrote a comment in his article. <br /><br />I responded to that point and too that point only. You, seeing your friend caught in a lie tried to change the subject. I knowing this Rovian tactic, caught you and called you out on it. <br /><br />You keep trying to bluster and detract. BUT... in the end you can't. General internet protocol is that if you respond to my comment then you address the subject matter of that comment. You won't because you realize that your friend did the wrong thing. <br /><br />It's ok oldschool.. but I will remind you of one old internet adage about Holes. When you find yourself in one.... Quit Digging. <br /><br />Oh and Karl would really not be proud. You should have quit while you were behind.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-40763253908428575732012-05-16T17:00:38.400-07:002012-05-16T17:00:38.400-07:00YOU are talking about what Mike said. I am not. I ...YOU are talking about what Mike said. I am not. I am NOT required to because of your manipulative needs. You do not get to decide for me what I can say or how I may participate in any conversation, even if you believe you have that right.<br /><br />Anyway, your assertion that I tried to distract from what Mike said is 100% false. Nor am I trying to defend anyone, at any cost. What an idiotic thing to say! That is how you seem to think. It explains the manner in which you communicate. How ironic, when one considers your clarion call for better information and more understanding, then belittle others and try to shut them down unless they comply with your demands. Yes, it's all about you, at least in your own mind.<br /><br />In fact, YOUR words stuck out like a sore thumb, which is why, after reading them, I decided to comment. Obviously, you do not care about my issue. How insightful that remark is, in relation to your other words and deeds, to reveal hypocrisy.<br /><br />My comment was not a non-sequitur whatsoever. That could only be so if I was discussing the issue you are fixated on. I have explained several times that I was not. Indeed, your response is a non-sequitur. I know you do not want to address the issue, and that is your choice. No wonder. I may screw my pants on, but your pants are down!oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-52878844061853471142012-05-16T16:06:13.624-07:002012-05-16T16:06:13.624-07:00LOL... no matter how much you write. No matter how...LOL... no matter how much you write. No matter how much you try to distract.. You still can't do it. <br /><br />But let's explain it slowly... That way maybe you can understand. Follow this if you can. <br /><br />Mike wrote an article in which he stated that I (vb1) wanted to see the Palestinian Narrative taught as a "corrective" to the Israeli Narrative. <br /><br />I stated that this is a misrepresentation and that No, I did not say this at all. That was my comment. I pulled in context to show just how wrong this was. <br /><br />Then, you replied with a complete non-sequitor trying to change the issue AWAY from Mike's obvious lie/misrepresentation to something that you wanted to discuss. <br /><br />Let me give you an example:<br /><br />Mike: Vb1 wants to end all fossil fuel vehicles because he hates cars.<br /><br />Vb1: Mike, that is ridiculous, I want cars to become hybrid or electric so we can save the environment<br /><br />Oldschool: How come you want everyone to ride in boats when you drive a car. <br /><br />See.. my comment was to Mike. Your comment was a complete non-sequitor. And a pathetic one at that (like the example). I did not come here to address your opinions of my shortcomings of a human being. <br /><br />Mike misrepresented / lied about something I said, I came to respond to that misrepresentation / lie. Just because you want to distract from your friends being caught in a lie doesn't mean I am going to play your game. I care about one thing. Setting the record straight. That's pretty much it. You care about one thing. Defending your friends lie at all costs. I get that. <br /><br />I don't particularly care what your issue is. I really don't. You responded to my response. Now, either you agree that Mike's representation of my comment is false or you think it is true. That is what we are discussing. Not prices of bowling balls in Outer Katmandu, Not the state of street musicians in Argentina, Not whether the Republicans are complete Douchenozzles or only sort of douchenozzles. We are talking about Mike's misrepresentation. <br /><br />If you think he is telling the truth, back that up citing full quotes and context from the diary. If you think he is not telling the truth then you should either stay out of the conversation or admit that and urge him to tell the truth. Pretty freakin' simple. <br /><br />Question for you... Given your twisting here; do you have to screw your pants on the morning just to get into them? (Tip o'the ole Kippah to Hunter S. Thompson R.I.P.)volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-2687977459203668012012-05-16T15:30:24.775-07:002012-05-16T15:30:24.775-07:00I have to do better? Pardon me, but I am doing fin...I have to do better? Pardon me, but I am doing fine. You seem bent on avoidance, however.<br /><br />What were you referring to by the words you wrote, as follows:<br /><br /><i>"...how to build peace in a hostile environment - with better information. Here in America we fight that battle as well, and it is important - in the Middle East they fight wars because neither side understands the other.<br /><br />Imagine if they did."</i><br /><br />How does that conform to the manner in which you reject other narratives yourself, calling others deranged haters in the process? Does that lead to better information or understanding?<br /><br />Why are you fixated anyway on the matter of a corrective to history, when it has NOTHING to do with any of my comments? <b>Can you point to one comment I made about corrective actions?</b><br /><br />I did not try to shift away from your argument with Mike, but addressed an entirely separate issue that shows how your words differ from your deeds.<br /><br />It is strange, to me, that you insist I must address what you want. Are you capable only to discuss one matter to the exclusion of all others? Or perhaps it is because you cannot explain the clear disconnect that I raised between your desire that we understand each other compared with your own rejectionism.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-41308355953399644652012-05-16T15:22:30.617-07:002012-05-16T15:22:30.617-07:00Yes you might be trying to establish that... But t...Yes you might be trying to establish that... But that was not your original claim. Now if you want to issue a correction and admit you misrepresented my P.O.V. then we can discuss that. But let's clear up the misconceptions first. Shall we? <br /><br />Why do you keep only using partial quotes? Is it because you know that the full quote destroys the point you want to make. <strong>Here</strong> is the full quote: <br /><br /><em><strong>I wrote a diary advocating the teaching of the Palestinian version of history as a addition to teaching of the Israeli narrative so that people in Israel understand competing narratives. It is how you build bridges. <br /><br />Nowhere did I ever write a diary that espoused teaching the Palestinian narrative as a correction to "actual history".</strong></em><br /><br />As I said Mike, if you have to misrepresent to make your point then maybe it is not worth making.volleyboy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/02899507817699308811noreply@blogger.com