tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post6606926570913308920..comments2024-01-02T02:18:30.960-08:00Comments on Israel Thrives: Ceylan Özbudak Has Some WordsMike L.http://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-6949551690529475322012-12-05T11:45:45.055-08:002012-12-05T11:45:45.055-08:00Did not say you were going wrong, but that the cla...Did not say you were going wrong, but that the claim that he supports the MB takes away from the strength of the argument you are trying to make to progressive Jews to provide real push back against his policies.<br /> oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-13601576756671507642012-12-04T21:12:15.439-08:002012-12-04T21:12:15.439-08:00Forged in Europe and called the Euro-Arab Dialogue...Forged in Europe and called the Euro-Arab Dialogue.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-53532647331034495542012-12-04T21:10:23.822-08:002012-12-04T21:10:23.822-08:00I think the matter is more nuanced than to call it...I think the matter is more nuanced than to call it support and to assume the matter is black and white.<br /><br />That is not to disagree that anti-Israel progressives are ignorant of the fruits of their actions, and who suffers.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-84831587495823264242012-12-04T19:36:24.390-08:002012-12-04T19:36:24.390-08:00Probably not. He had his own cadre of ideological ...Probably not. He had his own cadre of ideological experts just like any president has had. It starts there. He had a plan, a utopian hope and change plan and it had to include insisting the MB be there because that's his view of democracy, inclusiveness even for fucking Nazis. It's a view forged in America, not in the crazy world of Middle East realities. It was as nonsensical as Bush et al figuring on spreading Democracy in the middle east as a solution for everything.<br /><br />My best guess is that they knew but didn't care because:<br />-they couldn't do anything anyway but still had to deal with them<br /><br />-they thought they could hope and change them<br /><br />-some other reason connected to an overall ME foreign policy plan many of us can make no sense ofDoodadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349941094682080146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-41246370409518750142012-12-04T19:00:26.131-08:002012-12-04T19:00:26.131-08:00Ya got me, Doodad.
There are any number of schola...Ya got me, Doodad.<br /><br />There are any number of scholars who have documented the MB / Nazi connection including Matthias Küntzel, Jeffrey Herf, Edwin Black, and Paul Berman.<br /><br />Surely the Obama administration would have had the basic common sense to discuss the Brotherhood with the scholars who have done the most research into the matter... but, then again, maybe not.<br />Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-57344397683351693602012-12-04T18:52:43.563-08:002012-12-04T18:52:43.563-08:00"The Brotherhood are Nazis."
I knew it...."The Brotherhood are Nazis."<br /><br />I knew it. You knew it. Lots of posters we talk to knew it. WTF didn't Obama know it? Here's this supposed genius with access to the world's smartest advisors in the greatest nation in the world. WTF went wrong? First clue....he INSISTED they attend his Cairo speech. Add ice, shake and pour into rim slated glass.Doodadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349941094682080146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-56611664839313994142012-12-04T18:42:54.308-08:002012-12-04T18:42:54.308-08:00I don't know, School.
What I do know is that ...I don't know, School.<br /><br />What I do know is that I oppose these left-wing conservatives who, whatever their best intentions, support the oppression of women and the genocide of the Jews.<br /><br />When we support Obama on foreign policy, this is what we are supporting, whether we acknowledge it or not.<br /><br />Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-86950730313572752882012-12-04T18:30:16.730-08:002012-12-04T18:30:16.730-08:00I think you have taken a leap too far, although I ...I think you have taken a leap too far, although I would not argue a claim that Obama was negligent.<br /><br />I would be interested to hear from his ardent supporters what his invitation to the MB to his 2009 speech meant, especially when it caused Mubarak to stay away.<br /><br />When Obama is long gone, we may see him much like Carter, who also seemed to believe the Iran Revolution would usher in democracy.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-28099051864716903932012-12-04T18:18:09.474-08:002012-12-04T18:18:09.474-08:00School,
if the "forces of change" are t...School,<br /><br />if the "forces of change" are the Muslim Brotherhood and Obama supports these "forces of change" than by logical necessity it means that he supports the Muslim Brotherhood.<br /><br />Now, it is possible that when Barack Obama supported the Muslim Brotherhood... which is an organization that, itself, supports the oppression of the Copts and of women, the murder of Gay people, and the genocide of the Jews... he may have thought that these were Jeffersonian democrats interested in the Rights of Man.<br /><br />I suppose that's possible, but that would make the guy a complete moron, would it not?<br /><br />So either the guy knowingly supports genocidal fascism or he unknowingly does so.<br /><br />Which do you suppose is better?Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-83610122562979120842012-12-04T18:04:44.615-08:002012-12-04T18:04:44.615-08:00There must be millions of Egyptians that do not wa...There must be millions of Egyptians that do not want to end up like the Germans, living in totalitarianism.<br /><br />That said, supporting "forces of change" does not mean that Obama is a proponent of the MB.<br /><br />He should have been more specific and clear about the change, however, and more proactive in speaking out against the Islamic ideology.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-56581941189497542322012-12-04T17:06:39.222-08:002012-12-04T17:06:39.222-08:00Thanks, Doodad.
G-d only knows how many Egyptians...Thanks, Doodad.<br /><br />G-d only knows how many Egyptians are absolutely horrified at the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in their country.<br /><br />The Brotherhood are Nazis.<br /><br />Their history goes to the Nazis and, yet, they have the support of the president of the United States.<br /><br />I simply do not understand why left diaspora Jewry cannot speak the truth as it is.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-81741129393005181412012-12-04T16:11:30.067-08:002012-12-04T16:11:30.067-08:00Here's a pic you might like Mike
https://pbs....Here's a pic you might like Mike<br /><br />https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A9SlUDdCIAAqU4P.jpg:largeDoodadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349941094682080146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-48958665986345440362012-12-04T15:57:37.840-08:002012-12-04T15:57:37.840-08:00Stuart, if someone supports a movement that means ...Stuart, if someone supports a movement that means that they support the movement.<br /><br />A = A.<br /><br />He said quite specifically that he supports the political movement that we call the "Arab Spring."<br /><br />This is not "grasping at straws" but facing reality as it is.<br /><br />On September 25, 2012, Obama stood before the world community and said that he supports this movement.<br /><br />And all I am saying is that Obama supports this movement.<br /><br />Yet, somehow, you disagree with both of us.<br /><br />Truth is not a function of one's political inclinations and hopes. Truth can sometimes be difficult to know, but sometimes there is enough overwhelming evidence that one can claim, yes, this is true.<br /><br />But, needless to say, you are under no obligation to acknowledge that which is obvious.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-16094488278948669472012-12-04T15:17:55.941-08:002012-12-04T15:17:55.941-08:00Is there any accountability for having supported c...Is there any accountability for having supported change that many could see would result in an authoritarian state based on religious ideology?oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-18918897216539574112012-12-04T14:18:41.237-08:002012-12-04T14:18:41.237-08:00Maybe it developed into something else. It may be ...Maybe it developed into something else. It may be some sort of democracy, I don't really know. Ask me a few years from now after constitutions are in place. I'm not terribly optimistic. But I think the argument that Obama has supported change, and therefore must be in favor of hard-line conservative politcs lacks any semblance of logic. It's grasping at straws. Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09405170992142157365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-46904561513412565962012-12-04T09:25:31.014-08:002012-12-04T09:25:31.014-08:00But...but...but RRRRRRROMMMMNEY!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAGG...But...but...but RRRRRRROMMMMNEY!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAGGGGGCCCGGGGGhhhhh!!!!!! /kosRandall Kohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06262147784760614189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-30808365724583601252012-12-04T09:22:59.520-08:002012-12-04T09:22:59.520-08:00I mean, really, Stuart, there must come a point wh...I mean, really, Stuart, there must come a point where you face reality.<br /><br />In Obama's Sept 25 speech before the UNGA he says it directly:<br /><br /><i>It's been less than two years since a vendor in Tunisia set himself on fire to protest the oppressive corruption in his country and sparked what became known as the Arab Spring. And since then, the world has been captivated by the transformation that's taken place, and the United -- <b>the United States has supported the forces of change.</b></i><br /><br />Do you still honestly think that the Arab Spring was the great upwelling of Middle Eastern democracy?<br /><br />Or was it, perhaps, something else.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-69537544661450625072012-12-04T09:10:13.228-08:002012-12-04T09:10:13.228-08:00Why should I not point out the fact that the Obama...Why should I not point out the fact that the Obama administration supports the most hard-line conservative political movement in the world today?<br /><br />This is a political movement that is so conservative that it is not above stoning women to death, for chrissake, and yet this administration supports it.<br /><br />And please don't tell me that Obama's support for political Islam somehow doesn't count as support.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-11188186078729018892012-12-04T07:27:00.176-08:002012-12-04T07:27:00.176-08:00I'm not sure which hard-line, conservative for...I'm not sure which hard-line, conservative foreign policy you're referring to. (Please don't explain again that he helped the Muslim Brotherhood take control, which is somehow less liberal than a non-elected dictator) And when taken as a whole, his policies, economic, social, and foreign, are significantly more liberal than the alternatives. Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09405170992142157365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-55833311516390728582012-12-04T00:34:26.670-08:002012-12-04T00:34:26.670-08:00btw, Stuart,
for the life of me I still cannot un...btw, Stuart,<br /><br />for the life of me I still cannot understand why you would support Obama's hard-line, conservative foreign policy.<br /><br />I thought that you are a liberal.Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-78374496310374222792012-12-03T22:40:56.461-08:002012-12-03T22:40:56.461-08:00We're considering a spring ceremony, perhaps i...We're considering a spring ceremony, perhaps in Antalya.<br /><br />;O) Mike L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06450806807610560873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-77217726995984613022012-12-03T19:56:35.003-08:002012-12-03T19:56:35.003-08:00This is a beautiful piece Mike. Thanks for posting...This is a beautiful piece Mike. Thanks for posting it. Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09405170992142157365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6579213173749170024.post-51811170060265558472012-12-03T16:54:35.953-08:002012-12-03T16:54:35.953-08:00Issues, for me, are:
1. The Muslim belief that pe...Issues, for me, are:<br /><br />1. The Muslim belief that people are entrusted is problematic.<br /><br />2. The concept of defense practiced in Islam seems far different than Westerners understand. It includes the right to violence for a cartoon.<br /><br />3. Is there a concept of abrogation with regard to the Qu'ran? Peaceful words are great, but what about the words that are extremely violent toward non-believers and those who wish to leave the faith, or women who desire individual rights?<br /><br />4. How should people who engage in acts of terror and war crimes be identified?<br /><br />That said, I appreciate the author's attempts to raise awareness, particularly among Muslims, that they have responsibility and can choose a different way, even if they won't for some of the issues indicated above.oldschooltwentysixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672887176887940797noreply@blogger.com