The Palestinian Authority will return to the negotiating table with Israel only if it stops building in the settlements and accepts the pre-1967 lines as the basis for a two-state solution, Nabil Abu Rudaineh, a spokesman for PA President Mahmoud Abbas, said on Sunday.
Oh, well. I guess in that case the status quo remains, but it's entirely their choice.
But, please stop telling me how "oppressed" these people are when they won't make even the slightest effort to relieve their own circumstances.
Y'know, we often hear that the Palestinians deserve a state. The truth of the matter, of course, is that the Palestinians deserve nothing.
Are they more deserving than Tibetans who would never dream in a million years of strapping a suicide belt onto a child? No. I do not think so.
Are they more deserving than the Kurds? Ridiculous. Of course they are not, and for precisely the same reason.
Nonetheless, I still believe that they should get a state so that maybe they can bring themselves to take on the responsibilities of statehood and perhaps even curb their efforts to kill Jews.
That would be terrific.
Karma, I'm pretty appalled at some of the things you've said here. The oppression of the masses (irrespective of the source of that oppression) has little to do with the actions of the few leaders (see China).
ReplyDeleteI won't debate the relative interest in peace between the Israeli government and the Palestinean leaders, (over the last 45 years it's ebbed and flowed on both sides.) but accepting a freeze and the pre-1967 borders as a basis for a two state solution is an easy one for the Israelis to agree to.
Seeking a peaceful resolution should be the goal of every Israeli and every Jew. Your path doesn't lead to peace.
S.
""I won't debate the relative interest in peace between the Israeli government and the Palestinean leaders, (over the last 45 years it's ebbed and flowed on both sides.)""
ReplyDeleteWhat crap. It's never ebbed, it's only ever been peace seeking from one side, the Jewish side.
BTW - This myth that Israel was created out of the holocaust is "big lie."
Israel’s juridical birth certificate is the pre-Holocaust League of Nations Mandate for Palestine of 1922 (provisionally operative from 1920) -- not the post-Holocaust United Nations Palestine Partition Plan of 1947. Moreover, the Mandate was itself explicitly based upon the preexisting “historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country” (Mandate for Palestine, Preamble, Paragraph 3).
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4GGLF_enUS232US232&hl=en&q=cache:vKPJkY3J_OIJ:http://www.rosenblit.com/CREATE%20ISRAEL.htm+league+of+nations+israel&ct=clnk
Abbas doesn't even recognize Israel's connection to the land! There has never been a peace partner, it's all been a farce, in fact it's an illegal farce as the UN had no right to overturn the League of Nations mandate granting all of Palestine to the Jews.
Uhhh, perhaps you haven't noticed "S" but the Palestinians have never accepted a country in peace next to Israel.
ReplyDeleteAnd your friends on the Left blame us for this.
That is, they generally blame the Jews.
It is long, long past time to acknowledge the obvious and one of the primary things that we need to acknowledge is that the progressive-left has, as a movement, betrayed the Jews.
As for "oppression of the masses," I do not quite take your meaning.
In any case, oppression or no oppression, the progressive-left has no particular interest in either social justice or universal human rights.
You, my good sir, are subject to a fraud.
I don't blame anyone. As I've told you, I think arguing history is fruitless exercise. I could easily find fault with most sides if that was important, it's not.
ReplyDeleteYou've condemned the 3 million Palestinians (or however many there are) for crimes and mideeds of their leadership. You know where that leads. I know it's not a place you want to go.
And Anonymous, no need for an Israeli history lesson. I've studied much of it and lived through most of it. I don't care what happened. Pointing fingers isn't a solution. What I care about is Israel's survival. I care about peace.
S.
S,
ReplyDeleteHow important is it that:
Hamas Gaza leader Ismail Haniyeh recently said, again, he would not accept the existence of Israel, ever, not the idea that Israel is anything other than eternal Arab land.
That Hamas "political leader" Khaled Meshal said on Saturday that "resistance" remains the strategic option at all stages in order to liberate all of Palestine is the elimination of the Zionist project.
Among others, such as Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini who just said that any solution that allows Israel to remain in existence in any form is rejected in full.
Seems to me like history is quite important and establishes, yet again, that for some it's not about the people at all.
Karma, if you're aguing that there are many that do not want peace, you'll win that argument. Of course. A dozen more examples, a thousand more examples, won't convince me that peace is impossible. But it will never be possible if either side puts up barriers to that peace. Please note here, I'm not saying that the barriers have always been the Israelis. They haven't. This particular barrier (stop building settlements (you know how i feel about that one) and the pre-1967 borders) is not one presented by the Israelis. It is a barrier presented by the Palestinian leadership. But one that I think Israeli leadership can and should move past.
ReplyDeleteS.
Fatah Official Abbas Zaki States the Real Goal of the Illegal Current Fatah-PLO-PA 'Palestinian'-Arab-State U.N. Bid; Al-Jazeera TV Arabic (Qatar), September 23, 2011
ReplyDeletehttp://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3130.htm
Transcript:
Abbas Zaki: "The settlement should be based upon the borders of June 4, 1967. When we say that the settlement should be based upon these borders, President [Abbas] understands, we understand, and everybody knows that the greater goal cannot be accomplished in one go.
"If Israel withdraws from Jerusalem, evacuates the 650,000 settlers, and dismantles the wall – what will become of Israel? It will come to an end."
[...]
"Who is nervous, upset, and angry now? Netanyahu, Lieberman, and Obama... All those scumbags. Why even get into this? We should be happy to see Israel upset."
[...]
"If we say that we want to wipe Israel out... C'mon, it's too difficult. It's not [acceptable] policy to say so. Don't say these things to the world. Keep it to yourself.
"I want the resolutions that everybody agrees upon. I say to the world, to the Quartet, and to America: You promised, and you turned out to be liars."
Mahmoud Abbas States His Intentions vis-a-vis the Arab Refugees from the 1948 Muslim Arab War, and States His View about Recognizing Israel as the Jewish State; Ramallah, August 27, 2011
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqoMKZaTxU
Transcript:
Mahmoud Abbas: "Present to us something sensible. Don't present to us "The Jewish Sate". We will never accept it. We will never accept these sayings. Or when you say that there are...[*applause*]...settlement blocs as an existing fact, or that the refugees' problem will be solved in the Palestinian state. That is what they presented. We will never accept these sayings. The Quartet cannot force upon us the character of the state or that we should recognize the nature of the Israeli state."
The 1968, currently official, PLO Charter explicitly calls Israel "the Zionist entity" and refers to Israel as "the Zionist occupation" "of Palestine". Article 9 of the 1968 PLO Charter states that “armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.” Article 15 of the PLO Charter states that it is “a national duty to repulse the Zionist imperialist invasion from the great Arab homeland and to purge the Zionist presence from Palestine”. Article 22 of the 1968 PLO Charter declares that “the liberation of Palestine will liquidate the Zionist and imperialist presence.”
ReplyDeleteAt the 2010 PLO conference in August 2010, the President of Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority, Mahmoud Abbas, and the other officials of Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority, officially re-affirmed their adherence to the 1968 PLO Charter.
A Brief Summary of the History of the 'Palestinian Movement' and of Fatah-PLO-PA
ReplyDeleteThe PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was created in 1964 in Egypt by then-President of then-Soviet-Supported Egypt Gamal Abdel Nasser with officials of the Soviet KGB.
The 1964, original, PLO Charter explicitly calls Israel "the Zionist entity" and refers to Israel as "the Zionist occupation" "of Palestine", and explicitly states that what was then, and that what is now, called "The West Bank" (which, at that time, was (illegally) occupied by Jordan) and that what was then, and that what is now, called "The Gaza Strip" (which, at that time, was (illegally) occupied by Egypt) are not included in what the 1964 PLO Charter calls "Palestine".
In 1968, after the 1967 Arab war against Israel which Israel won and in which Israel captured, from Jordan, what was then, and that what is now, called "The West Bank", and captured, from Egypt, what was then, and what is now, called "The Gaza Strip", the PLO Charter was changed to explicitly state that what was then, and that what is now, called "The West Bank", and that what was then, and that what is now, called "The Gaza Strip", are included in what the 1968 PLO Charter refers to as "the Zionist occupation" "of Palestine".
The founder of the 'Palestinian movement', Amin al-Husseini, was the most prominent, and most influential, Muslim leader in the Muslim world from the 1920's to the late 1940's. From 1920 to the late 1930's, Amin al-Husseini organized and led Muslim Arab riots and massacres in the the British Mandate of Palestine. In 1928, Amin al-Husseini joined the Nazi-influenced, Nazi-allied, "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"-conspiracy-theory-ideology-about-the-Jewish-people-based, supremacist-totalitarian-imperialist-racist-authoritative-orthodox-Islam-based, Sunni Muslim Islamic supremacist political organization the Muslim Brotherhood, which had been founded in Egypt, earlier that year, in 1928, by Hassan al-Banna, who was an admirer of Adolf Hitler. In 1935, Amin al-Husseini, with his family, created the Nazi-influenced, Nazi-allied, Palestinian Arab Party, with which he and his family created the Muslim Arab terrorist youth corps al-Futuwwa, with which he murdered Arab leaders in the British Mandate of Palestine who opposed him. From 1941 to 1941, Amin al-Husseini resided in Germany, and was an adjoined official of the Nazi regime of Germany, and was a co-architect of the Nazi 'Final Solution', and, from 1941 to 1945, broadcasted, from the most powerful radio station that existed in Germany at that time, Radio Zeesen, authoritative-Islam-based, "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-conspiracy-theory-ideology-about-the-Jewish-people-based, genocidally anti-Jewish, and anti-American, and (turning on his former patrons) anti-British, and anti-democracy, pro-Nazi, radio programs in Arabic and Turkish and Farsi (the Persian language) to all of the countries in the Middle East, which were radio programs that became popular in Muslim societies in the Middle East, and which were radio programs to which Ruhollah Khomeini, the then-future-founder of the Shia branch of the modern Islamic supremacist political movement, was, as a young man in Iran, a dedicated, and regular, listener. In 1948, Amin al-Husseini, as the head of the Arab Higher Committee, co-ordinated the 1948 Muslim Arab intendedly genocidal attack against Israel.
(continued)
Israel has accepted the Quartet's proposal; Abbas has declined. That's not history yet having happened a day or so ago but it shows who wants peace, who doesn't and how the left and progressives are blaming the wrong side while claiming their eyes are wide open and they are the adults in the room.
ReplyDeleteThis is not rocket science.
No, it's not rocket science. There are real people involved. The future of Israel is involved. If you'd rather fight with a small fringe element of the left, and ignore the bigger picture, be my guest. But fighting with that fringe ideological element, while clinging to your own ideologies won't bring peace.
ReplyDeleteS.
S,
ReplyDeleteThe bigger picture includes the statements and deeds of the Palestinian leaders cited herein.
How is one to deal with THAT ideological element?
Even if some here are a bit too left obsessed, what to do about what appears an indifference to peace and to the Palestinian people who seem ignored or misled by their leaders.
oldschool,
ReplyDeleteIt's unlikely anyone is going to come up with any history of bad Palestinian leaders that I'm not familiar with. I was telling people about al-Husseini 40 years ago. Somewhere along the line I decided it was irrelevant. I still think that decision is valid. We're dealing with here and now. The only thing that is not irrelevant is peace. Without it, Israel's future is bleak. If that means that Israel should bend over backwards for it, then Israel should do so. As i said, pointing fingers won't do it.
S.
S
ReplyDeleteWhat is the formula for peace?
1)Hamas controls Gaza, they don't want peace.
2)Abbas just violated the Oslo accords by going to the UN, they are effectively null and void.
3)Abbas turned down Olmert's incredible offer in 2008.
4)Abbas has just declined the quartet's proposal for peace talks.
5)Even when Israel froze settlement construction Abbas refused to talk
So please describe this quixotic, elusive formula for peace.
And one more thing. I hate the ominous tones those on the left use when describing what may happen if peace isn't reached. How do I see it? The Palestinians will suffer way more than Israelis. Time is on Israel's side. The Palestinians are self destructing.
The big issue: Iran and it's nuclear program. Solve that and you may, possibly, tho probably not solve I/P. That is Israel's number one problem.
Thanks
Dedicated to the commenter "Anonymous"/"S." and to all other people who hold views that are identical to, or similar to, the views that "Anonymous"/"S." has expressed:
ReplyDeleteExcerpt from "The Anti-Semite’s Pointed Finger", by Ruth R. Wisse:
"Today, by any reasonable standard, Israel remains a beacon of liberalism in an illiberal region. Moreover, on any genuine political compass, Jews and Israel are the true north of liberalism, not simply on account of the way they are constituted as a people, but also because of the anti-liberal forces ranged against them. Arab opponents of Israel themselves oppose liberal democracy and fear its freedoms. Anti-Semitism in all its forms — Christian and Muslim, secular and religious, totalitarian and authoritarian — is an anti-liberal movement, one that explicitly defines liberalism as a Jewish conspiracy. One would therefore expect the alignment of Israel with liberalism and anti-Zionism with anti-liberalism to win Israel the defense of all liberals. The standard-bearers of muscular liberalism, from the 19th-century novelist George Eliot to the late senator Henry “Scoop” Jackson, have done just that, using defense of Jewish rights as a touchstone of liberal principles.
"Yet here is the paradox: the fiercer anti-Semitism grows, the more it forces a choice on liberals. The choice is between protecting the Jews and protecting the orthodox liberal belief in rational compromise, world peace, “getting to yes,” and all the rest. Protecting the Jews requires confronting hostility that is not subject to rational persuasion, does not obey the liberal version of the rule of law, does not abide by liberal ideas of fairness, and does not extend peace and goodwill to others. To side with Israel, therefore, leaves one exposed to the same hostility that assails the Jews — an uncomfortable position for individuals and governments alike. The dictates of self-interest persuade some to ignore aggression that presumably doesn’t concern them, and then to justify their callousness by holding Jews responsible for the aggression against them. Some Jews try to demonstrate their own innocence by dissociating themselves from those of their fellow Jews who are under attack.
"The politics of anti-Semitism strikes again: blaming the Jews succeeds by persuading liberals that it is aimed only at the “culpable” Jews. By casting these Jews as aggressors, it invites liberals to join the attack on them, on behalf of the Jews’ alleged victims. It congratulates liberals for joining the anti-liberal side by persuading them that they stand with the weak against the strong.
...
"I have tried to show (a) that anti-Semitism cannot be arrested by any remedial action of the Jews; (b) that there are harmful consequences for pretending that concessions from Jews can stop the aggression against them; and (c) that anti-Semitism forces a choice between protection of the Jews and, under the guise of liberalism, complicity with their enemies. And though anti-Semitism is often compared to cancer, there is no comparable effort to finding a cure. The reason seems plain: where the carriers of an illness are also its casualties, they and their well-wishers have incentives to tackle the problem. But the carriers of anti-Semitism do not experience themselves as its apparent victims. At-risk Jews cannot halt the malignancy, because they are not its carriers. And its carriers, the anti-Semites, will not seek a cure, because they don’t recognize its harm to them. Not until enlightened Arabs recognize that they, not the Jews, are its ultimate casualties will this political threat be contained.
...
(continued)
"To say that anti-Semitism persists and succeeds does not mean that anti-Semitism is politically invulnerable. Tactics in fighting anti-Semitism may and should vary. But what is required strategically, from Jews as from all decent human beings, is no more than what justice and truth and genuine liberalism demand: namely, to reject vigorously the role of defendant at the bar of world opinion and to instigate political, diplomatic, moral, and intellectual countersuits on every front."
ReplyDeleteThanks for that Daniel, but I have no idea how it is the least bit pertinent to the current conversation.
ReplyDeleteS.
Hey you guys,
ReplyDeleteDaniel is open about the fact that he suffers from diagnosed Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
He's also an exceedingly intelligent person, if you can read your way through him.
I intend to support the guy and help him out where I can, including here.
Cheers!
And "S" I know that you are good man and caring man and a smart man.
I understand why you are appalled.
I am appalled, as well.
I very much hope that you will continue to talk with me, despite your disappointment.
Karma :)
ReplyDeleteI adore you man. I can be appalled at some of the things you write and still like you. I wouldn't think of even trying to discourage you continuing on your path. I will only suggest that sometimes you attibute characteristics to all Palestinians that rightfully belong to something less than all. That's the genesis of othering. They are people. Mothers and fathers, children, sisters and brothers. Some of them, many in a real numbers sense, have done things that kill Jews and threaten the existence of Israel. I get that. But that doesn't make "them" inhuman. Millions of them have suffered over the last 60+ years. And unlike the Torah and Talmud may teach, my compassion for those that want peace is not diminished based on whether they're Palestinian or Jews. I hope you share that compassion.
S.
"Anonymous"/"S.",
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
"Thanks for that Daniel, but I have no idea how it is the least bit pertinent to the current conversation."
I hope that maybe if you think more about the situation, including about the real phenomena referred to by the facts that I listed in my previous comments, and if you think more about what is expressed in the excerpt from the article by Ruth Wisse that I quoted, you may understand how the excerpt from the article by Ruth Wisse that I quoted is quite pertinent to the current conversation.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKarma,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your support.
Dan
S,
ReplyDeleteI was not speaking about the Mufti of 40 years ago, but the leaders of Hamas, the PA, the MB, Iran, etc., TODAY!
Should these be ignored? How would you suggest they be addressed? Do you take them at their word?
It's great to say that Israel must move on, and it should, but where is there evidence the Palestinians/Arabs and Iran are ready to?
Oldschool,
ReplyDeleteHamas? Probably useless. Iran? No one to negotiate with. The PA? Maybe. Should negotiations being held up because one side is suspicious of the other? Should they only go forward if there is a guarantee they will be successful? Twenty years ago we were close, (closer I suspect, than most believe) and a few wrong moves destroyed that. I don't think opportunities should be wasted, particularly when the cost is so small.
What is the opportunity? It really is not a matter of suspicion when one's adversaries express their intentions and do other things consistent therewith.
ReplyDeleteCan't say that I know the answer, but my instinct says that even with a successful negotiation there will not be peace for reasons beyond the territorial.
No one should ever lose sight of the way these regimes treat their peoples domestically as an indicator of the type of regimes when seen in the larger picture internationally.
What is the opportunity? It really is not a matter of suspicion when one's adversaries express their intentions and do other things consistent therewith.
ReplyDeleteCan't say that I know the answer, but my instinct says that even with a successful negotiation there will not be peace for reasons beyond the territorial.
No one should ever lose sight of the way these regimes treat their peoples domestically as an indicator of the type of regimes when seen in the larger picture internationally.
"The real obstacle to long-term peace is the endless and overwhelming words of hate and incitement to genocide effectively spread to Arabs and Palestinians. One example is the textbooks given to millions of children in Saudi Arabia, distributed in the Arab world and beyond, that label Jews “monkeys and pigs.” This continues to foment discord, radicalism and violence."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-human-rights-groups-ignore-palestinians-war-of-words/2011/09/26/gIQAWU5y2K_story.html?wprss=