Well Tone... usually you and I get along (5+ / 0-)
so I will be sociable.
I came into this diary in attack mode, not for the diary itself which does raise some possibly good discussion points but for the Nazi Analogies that were made, uprated and not dealt with. Please understand that this is incredibly offensive to me as a Jew. To compare Israeli Jews to Nazis is a horrible thing yet... people do it and their big complaint off course is not that it is not true but that it leads to "unhelpful conversation".
In reality, Nazi references should be banned not because they don't help conversation but because they are hate speech of the highest order. No matter how much one hates Israel - they don't even begin to approach the horror of Nazi Germany. Only the most vicious of people would suggest they do. Analogies between Nazi Germany and Present day Israel are lies spread by only those incredibly weak minded fools who want to make a point (and yes, Israelis and Jews can be that stupid) for gullible idiots who are unaware of the true horror that was the shoah.
So... I was incredibly offended by this. I was also shocked that the diarist (an Israeli Jew and social activist) would turn a blind eye to this hatred. I honestly can't understand how he could do that.
So there is where I am coming from. What really is disturbing is that generally Team-P with exceptions seems not to understand why I would be so angry and respond like I did. I wonder if someone made similar comments regarding Palestinians or Arabs how they would feel.
Think on it.
Live the freakin' dream
by volleyboy1 on Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 10:26:35 PM
I would take it a step farther and suggest that calling Jews Nazis, or calling Israel something akin to Nazi Germany, is essentially the blood libel and is the kind of thing that can easily result in violence.
But again, remember, this is coming from the Left.
There is an element on the Left, within the Democratic Party, that is essentially laying the ground for a potential future genocide of the Jews.
Will it pan out to genocide? Probably not.
Are they trying their damndest to defame the Jews and thereby bring it about? You bet they are.
They may not think of it in those terms, but neither did the Nazis. Your average Nazi, much like your average progressive, did not think that their words would result in genocide and war, but justice. Just as many contemporary progressives think their defamation of the Jews is about justice, so most Nazis thought that their defamation of the Jews was also about justice.
Just as the Nazis thought that the Jewish people were bad, so contemporary progressives are convinced that the Jewish state is likewise bad.
What the progressive-left is doing is nothing new. It's the same thing that we face every generation, although it is coming from an unexpected direction this time. When I was growing up we all pretty much thought that anti-Jewish racism was more or less over except for the fringe hard-right of skin heads and neo-Nazis.
You can only imagine my surprise when I got on-line and realized that this time the pure hatred was coming out of the Left.
What a shame.
Karma... (volleyboy1 here - I am really starting to hate blogspot)
ReplyDeleteThis kind of speech comes more from the Right than it does from the Left. Most to the supposed "human rights activists" at DKos are the furthest thing from Lefties as possible. I mean look over at their favorite site MondoFront. Phil Weiss and crew have a serious journalistic love affair going with wingnut (and I might add Republican) Ron Paul.
These "human rights activists" could give a shit about what the Palestinian polity represents in terms of liberal ideals (basically zero), so how can one say that this comes from mainline progressives. Maybe from some Neo-Stalinist hard Lefties (which are indistinguishable from the hard Right), but not from the mainline Left.
This comment Karma:
They may not think of it in those terms, but neither did the Nazis. Your average Nazi, much like your average progressive, did not think that their words would result in genocide and war, but justice. Just as many contemporary progressives think their defamation of the Jews is about justice, so most Nazis thought that their defamation of the Jews was also about justice.
is dead wrong. Most Nazis thought in terms of annihilation and genocide. Their philosophy had very little to do with justice and very much to do with some sick view of racial superiority that manifested itself in racial genocide.
Progressives (and I mean real progressives not like neo-Stalinist, or hard righties masquerading as progressives) don't stand for anything like that.
Volley, thank you for the response.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that most Nazis, by which I mean run of the mill party members, were regular Germans, just as most American progressives are regular Americans.
We have to stop thinking of Nazis in terms that make of them cartoon villains. I am not saying that you do so, but that most people do.
The fact of the matter is that most Nazis were just typical Germans and that's what's is scary about the whole thing.
Just as most southern supporters of Jim Crow were just regular folk, the same is true of most Nazi party members in 1930s Germany.
The threat does not come from evil people, VB.
The threat, to the extent that there is one, comes out of the world of ordinary people. It comes from just what you are witnessing on dkos.
Those are, for the most part, regular people who care about social justice and, yet, there they are comparing Jews to Nazis.
They are neither evil, nor stupid, yet they are playing a game that could potentially see your kids harmed or worse.
Sad, but true.
In any case, although we often disagree, I respect your efforts, by and large.
Peace to you, please, good sir.
Cheers!
I agree that these people are not like Nazis, but many do seem comparable to Bolsheviks, with a dose of Stalin thrown in for good measure.
ReplyDeleteThe issue, however, is that there is such a herd mentality over there that people remain silent either because they approve of the illiberal messages and behavior or are coerced in fear of being labeled as right wing.
The environment is such that most people at the site miss so much news that would shake their false perceptions of reality to the core.
One more thing. It's too bad that the Nazi bugaboo precludes discussion of the Arab-Nazi connections, which were and are real.
ReplyDeleteOr think of the Klan.
ReplyDeleteWhen most people think of the Ku Klux Klan they think of night riders and lynchings.
What they don't think of are Sunday picnics and social gatherings, but the Klan did these kinds of activities as well.
They were friends and neighbors who cared about the well-being of their communities. They did not think that what they were doing was wrong.
Neither did the Nazis.
And neither do these progressives.
When my ex-friend Ria decided to participate on BDS website that features a corrupted Star of David it never occurred to her that anyone would object because the last thing in this world she is is an anti-Semite, yet she participates on an anti-Semitic website.
This is how it works.
After WWII the Frankfurt School asked the question, how is it that the most enlightened country on the planet could go that route?
It wasn't because they were hypnotized by a mad man. It was because they were told that the Jews are bad and they accepted that idea and repeated it among themselves.
And it was, for them, a matter of social justice. Just as many contemporary progressives believe that the Jewish state is something akin to evil, so the Germans in the 1930s thought likewise about the Jewish people.
It is all of a piece.
What we are seeing now in the progressive left is a small reflection of what European Jews saw in the early-mid part of the 20th century.
Does this mean that I think that there is a genocide in the offing. No. Not in the US, certainly.
But when the day comes that Israel has to defend itself, our friends on the progressive-left will not be in our corner.
Bet on it.
Regardless WHAT they are what stands out are their NUMBERS at dKos (aka the swamp)
ReplyDeleteExample" Volleyball does a diary about Syria (SYRIA Threatens Regional War)threatening to bomb Tel Aviv. BOMB for G-d's sake and gets 48 comments and 13 recommends.
Assafiban gets 196 comments and 94 recommends with his demonizing diary.
So we see what turns their crank and what doesn't. A look at overall numbers will also show that what's popular is anything which demonizes Israel.
DKos sucks. That much is clear.
AHAHAHAHAHA I got BOJO'd
ReplyDeleteOh well c'est la vie....
OH well so I got banned at Daily Kos for calling out people making Nazi analogies with Israel. Meanwhile weasel makes and uprates these analogies and unspeakable calls people "pro-occupation" and supports "Israel first trolls", and they happily get to say.
ReplyDeleteWhat's more amazing is that Assaf completely lied about what I said including my questioning his sanity (which I wasn't doing until he brought it up) and he gets a place of honor.
So hey DKos, now becomes a place where you can call Jews, Nazi's and Markos loves you for it.
Is that really how a mainstream Democratic site wants to be.
Given your history, I am fairly amazed.
ReplyDeleteNo one tried harder than you to bridge the gap between regular Jewish supporters of Israel and ideological anti-Zionists.
No one that I ever saw.
Yet you still get banned.
Does this tell you anything about the grassroots / netroots of the Democratic Party?
Anyways, sorry about this.
I know it must be galling, but in the long-term it is probably for the best.
Well Karma it doeesn't tell me about the Democratic Party because honestly, I don't think the banning was by the Democrats. It was Markos and that was pretty much it. He is not a functionary of the Democratic Party (as much as he tries to be). The strange thing is that I have no idea just why I was banned.
ReplyDeleteI tried, and one thing about my trying was that there really is no way to bridge the gap. Oh well c'est la vie.
there is a message in my inbox on DKos but I can't access it so I have no idea what was said.
Anyway, I still have http://progressivezionist.blogspot.com and I am still going to blog there.
I will say, it's not really galling. If Markos wants to have Mondofront at DKos and he thinks that will make him $$$$ then hey that is the American way. Don't let me stand in the way of those clicks from the hard left and hard right nutjobs.