fizziks writes:
I still disagree that it (Daily Kos - editor's note) is 'representative' of the Democratic party, even the base.
This goes directly to my thesis.
My thesis is that the progressive-left, and the grassroots of the Democratic party, has betrayed the Jewish people through accepting anti-Semitic anti-Zionism as part of the larger coalition.
Although you do not state it directly, it strikes me that when you claim that Daily Kos is not representative of the base of the party that you are challenging that thesis.
The truth, of course, is that I cannot know the extent to which dkos fairly represents the base of the party. Certainly it bills itself as a blog associated with the party and it is among the very largest of its type, which would indicate a broad cross-section of Democratic participation considering that it's over 300,000 in registration.
The thing is, tho, my argument is not based solely on dkos. I talk about dkos because I came out of dkos. But my argument is based on the big progressive blogs like the Huffington Post, the prominent progressive-left journals such as the UK Guardian, as well as big Democratic blogs such as Daily Kos. The fact is, actually, that Daily Kos is considerably less anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist than either the Guardian or the Huffington Post.
Nonetheless, what we see coming from the larger progressive blogs and journals is, at worst, a true hatred for the Jewish state and, at best, a comfortable acceptance of that hatred. There's certainly no question about that.
I would think that, taken together, these three prominent venues should indicate a significant trend, don't you? That is point number one, I guess.
We also have the polling which shows that Israel is far more popular among conservatives and Republicans than it is among Democrats and progressives. In fact, the more "progressive" someone is... whatever progressive means exactly... the less likely they are to be supportive of Israel.
I would also think that these two points should constitute sufficient evidence wherein anyone can easily argue that the progressive-left is not particularly friendly to the Jewish state.
However, when you combine those two points with a third, the fact that the progressive movement, as evidenced by the journals listed above, and elsewhere, has made a home of itself for anti-Semitic anti-Zionists, then one can reasonably conclude that the progressive movement, and the base of the party, has betrayed its Jewish constituency.
Finally, it should be noted that Israel is the only country on the face of the planet in which progressives discuss whether or not it should ever have come into existence and whether or not it should continue to exist.
Four points.
It seems pretty damning of the movement and the party to me.
Finally, this blog, this discussion, is not just about the country of Israel, nor is it just about the well-being of Jewish people. It is also about the rise of radical Islam, via the foolishly named "Arab Spring" (Islamist Winter) which is the the most significant geo-political event since the fall of the Soviet Union.
I respect you, fizziks.
Where am I wrong?
.
First, let me say that I don't ever read Huffington Post. I have no doubt
ReplyDeletethat it is every bit as vile as Daily Kos if not moreso, but I just don't know
enough about it to comment. The Guardian is a UK-based site and therefore not
relevant to analyzing domestic political attitudes.
There is no doubt that Daily Kos is chock full of, and a home
for, antisemites and anti-Zionists, and those are one in the same. And also
that Markos Moulitsas himself is an antisemite, if not in intent, then certainly
in effect, but my personal hunch is that it is both. That is why I left there,
after all. And I fully believe you that Huffington Post is just as bad, if not
worse.
Where we disagree in our analysis is whether Daily Kos et al., and the
attitudes we see there, are representative of, or important in, the Democratic
party. I believe the answer is no. Daily Kos is a forum that superficially
claims the mantle of the Democratic party, but has been drifting from that for
years, as evidenced by both the change in orientation in the readership away
from mainstream Democratic party political participation (i.e. most people there
will not vote for Obama, etc) and a change in the official mantra (i.e. it is no
longer 'more and better Democrats'). I assume Huffington Post is similar.
In my view, these mentioned blogs are simply not places that are
representative of, or important in, Democratic party politics. Therefore they
cannot be used, at this time, as evidence of problems with the 'Democratic base'
in regard to Israel. They are no more representative of the base of the
Democratic party than Mondoweiss, where everyone to a man is a Ron Paul
supporter, is representative of the base of the Republican party.
Just look at what happens in Daily Kos, versus in the 'real world', even in
the most 'progressive' environments. For instance, anti-Israel measures have
consistently failed in food co-ops around the country. Now you can't tell me
that organic foodie stores in Ann Arbor, Park Slope, Seattle, Davis, Sacramento,
and a host of other places are not representative of at least a slice of the
progressive movement and Democratic base. And yet these communities have
repeatedly defeated anti-Israel activity, even when deceptively wrapped up in
the banner of 'peace'. As did the whole liberal town of Sommerville, MA,
overwhelmingly. It doesn't get any more 'Democratic Base' than Sommerville.
As I have documented here many times, no national politicians of
the Democratic party are open anti-Zionists. None. None have openly embraced
any of the rhetoric or aims of anti-Zionism. None. The same cannot be said of
the Republican party, by the way, where such Ron Paul has done just that, and is
polling around 15-20%.
In fact, you are just incorrect when you imply that the 'progressive
movement' is unique in questioning Israel's right to exist. Ron Paul did not
only question it, he flatly stated it, and yet is polling 15-20% among
Republican voters.
Do those generic 'support for Israel' poll numbers concern me? Yes they do,
a bit. But what matters is that the Democratic Party, from its platform to the
rhetoric of all of its politicians, has in no way embraced any anti-Zionism. I
will gladly concede to you the day that it does.
In short, Daily Kos, and these other places like HuffPo, are rarified worlds
that do not, a present, reflect the real world of the Democratic Party. Daily
Kos is at present full of deranged keyboard warriors, most of whom are not even
Democrats, and has a presently active readership of maybe 10,000 people. It has
no prestige or power in the Democratic establishment anymore, and its' views, as
evidenced by my co-op example above, do not reflect the views of the base of the
Democratic party. Neither do the derangers at protests documented by Zombietime
and so on. Those people are not Democrats. I am fighting like hell to keep it
that way.
fizziks,
ReplyDeletethank you so much for your thoughtful reply.
You put significant effort into your comment, so I want to take a little time to give it the consideration that it deserves.
I may reply on the front page, if not today, then sometime over the next few days.
Cheers!