Mike L.
Needless to say, as the innocent victims of a racist, colonialist, imperialist, apartheid regime, they have every reason to want to play catch.
Of course, they've been playing catch with the Jews in the Middle East for 14 centuries, but why quibble?
By the way, I am not entirely certain just when this friendly example of fun-filled rock throwing took place, but it certainly represents a vivid example of the genre.
They should be very proud.
The Day of the Dhimmi is Done - Michael Lumish, PhD, proprietor. (mike.lumish@gmail.com)
Cease fire announced, if I had the time right, it's set for 2:00 ET. At least announced by Clinton and Egypt. No word yet from Israel. Presumably that will come very soon. US announces that it will take the opportunity to step up bolstering Israeli need for security, including reducing Hamas' ability to acquire rockets. I hope everyone can agree this is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteNo, Stuart.
DeleteA good thing would be eliminating the Hamas regime from Gaza.
Anything short of that is just kicking the can down the road.
This kind of thing does not prevent violence, it ensures greater violence in the future and probably not even the distant future, even.
That's really sad. You think stopping violence doesn't stop violence. I don't understand this way of thinking. Bombs are never a solution, regardless of which way they're flying.
DeleteThey aren't stopping violence.
DeleteThe Obama administration is saving Hamas, thus ensuring violence in the future.
As I said, Obama has Hamas's back.
That's what this really is.
Stuart,
DeleteAre you saying that self-defense through bombs or violence is never a solution?
All the evidence over the last week dispute this claim.
DeleteNo, oldschool...well, yes. I'm not saying that Israel's defense isn't essential. Israel was not the bad guy here. But their bombs didn't fix anything. Bombs are an acknowledgement of failure. Peace is the only success. This cease fire, particularly if it lasts, is huge.
DeleteI read all the criticisms here, and elsehwere, of Morsi and the MB in Egypt. Morsi claimed to be moderate, and not of the same cloth of the violent Islamic extremists that have characterized the MB over the last decades. This was his first test. I'm sure there will be arguments that it is all political, and related to US support, and maybe it is. But he had a choice here, to support Hamas without reservation. And he didn't. He pushed for the cessation of violence and he deserves credit for that, irrespective of the motivation.
I haven't heard any announcement from the Israeli government yet, but if it happens, if it stands, it will be the first time ever that Israel has made an agreement with an Islamist government. I'd be lying if I said that gives me any great hope for future agreements. My skepticism that Israel can live in peace surrounded by non-secular governments remains high. Yet it's a tiny step in the right direction.
That is not what I asked you, Stuart.
DeleteBombs are an acknowledgement of failure? Always? I think these statements are naive and dangerous.
There is a reason why Article 51 of the UN Charter exists. Self-defense is a right, and the drafters knew that aggression would occur.
Peace is the only success? Surely you jest. In a parallel world, perhaps.
This is why I asked the initial question, which you did not answer.
Do you believe in the right to self-defense and, if so, is violence ever appropriate in the exercise thereof?
No, I'm not jesting at all. Bombs are always an acknowledgement that better methods of agreement have failed. I have no illusion that Israel had better options available. They did what they had to do under the circumstances.
DeleteI did answer the question. Yes and no. Bombs are a solution for self-defense. But they're not a solution to make the other side stop shooting. What's needed is a bi-lateral agreement that both sides can live with. To Israel, that means security. To Gaza, that means access to goods and services. They are not mutually exclusive.
The concensus here seems to be that it's not possible with Hamas in control. I'm as skeptical as anyone of this possibility. But bombs won't drive Hamas from power. Only the Gazan people can do that.
Israel wants security, but the people in Gaza don't want merely access to goods and services. I mean, they want that, but that's not their demand, that's not why they're making war on Israel.
DeleteWhat they want is the elimination of the Jewish State. Consequently, a bilateral agreement for coexistence is impossible. And no, it's not Hamas doing one thing and the people wishing for another. Remember, Hamas was democratically elected; the people in Gaza brought it to power in full awareness of its eliminationist Charter and agreement with it.
Bombs actually can be a solution to make the other side stop shooting. What do you think happened here? Israel acted in self-defense and now Hamas has agreed to control the rocket attacks from its territory. Would it have done so absent Israel's response?
DeleteHamas was not denied access to goods and services until it chose to act as an aggressor.
Bombs could very well drive Hamas from power, too, if there were no constraints on the use of force. Israel operates with its hand often tied, as it attempts to comply with the rules of war. I heard yesterday some Arab apologist claim that Israel was intentionally targeting civilians, and had to chuckle. Imagine the dead if that really was Israel's intention. Your comment brought that to mind.
That only the Gazan people can remove Hamas is hogwash. History shows that most dictatorships are not voted from power.
It's not that I differ in theory with your arguments, but I believe they do not take adequate account that humans are not always looking for peace and brotherhood.
This idea
These people may not be savages, but looking at this or the dragging of people by motorcycle, they do engage in savage behavior.
ReplyDeleteIf this cease fire goes into effect it will be a reprieve for Hamas.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened here is that Hamas sent around 850 rockets into southern Israel throughout the year until really ramping up the violence last week with several hundred attacks within a very short period of time.
For awhile the west, and the Obama administration, was satisfied because Israel took its beating like a good Jew. Now that Israel has responded and, perhaps, wounded Hamas, the United States has stepped in to ensure that Israel back off.
This gives Hamas a reprieve and some time to re-organize and re-arm for the next series of attacks.
The only thing that Israel has accomplished, if it allows itself to be pressured by Obama, is that southern Israel will continue to be an unlivable war zone on into the future and Hamas will continue to upgrade its weaponry.
Tel Aviv and Jerusalem probably got a mere taste of what is coming.
But if you think for one second that the Obama administration has arranged for an end to the ongoing war against the Jews of the Middle East then you are failing to learn from history.
And, yeah, it is sad.
It's very sad, in fact.
Yeah, I'm not so sure you can deal with Hamas the same way you could deal with, say, Argentina. They're a genocidal terror organization, not a serious government seeking to reasonably settle a legitimate grievance.
DeleteThat all being said, again, fuck if I know what to do now. I generally tend to think an end to shooting is a good thing. As long as it stays that way. Which, sadly, I don't see that happening from their end. Or from one of the other independent contractors of terror.
It would be great to see a real publicity campaign about the war crimes committed by Hamas.
DeleteIt is so odd that one is called a bigot to say that the Arab side worships death more than life when there are so many examples of Arabs telling us the very same.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali explains the philosophical difference in the video posted at my site awhile back.
This is a candidate for inclusion on Mike's "WHAT YOU CAN'T DISCUSS" list on the sidebar -
Delete"It is so odd that one is called a bigot to say that the Arab side worships death more than life when there are so many examples of Arabs telling us the very same."
I will add that to the sidebar.
DeleteHow about something like,
What You Can't Discuss:
The fact that violent Jihadis call themselves "Jihadis" and claim to love death above life.
The truth, of course, is that you cannot discuss political Islam, period, on the progressive-left. It's the single most significant political development since the demise of the Soviet Union and, yet, we're supposed to ignore it entirely if we wish not to have our characters dragged through the mud.
How's that for messed up?
Yeah, it's ridiculous. They make Fred Phelps and friends look downright liberal, but for some reason.... SHHHH! It's not to be discussed. Or you're a 'racist.' Eye roll.
Delete"Hamas declares 'victory' after cease-fire
ReplyDeleteBy KHALED ABU TOAMEH
11/21/2012 22:20
Palestinians celebrate in Gaza, W. Bank after agreement reached...."History will mention that Gaza once hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with rockets," boasted a Hamas activist in Gaza City. "Today we triumphed. This is a victory from Allah."
Ahmed Bahr, a senior Hamas official, welcomed the cease-fire agreement. "The resistance groups have achieved an historic victory and paved the way for the battle of liberating palestine."
Bahr praised the Egyptians, Qataris and Turks for their role in achieving the cease-fire agreement.
The Popular Resistance Committees also declared victory and claimed that Israel had succumbed to its conditions for a cease-fire.
"The occupation and its army were forced to accept our conditions for a cease-fire," said Abu Ataya, spokesman for the PRC. "This is a great victory."
Abu Ataya said that the Palestinian armed groups have tought Israel "a lesson that it would not forget for a long time.""
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=292967
No surprise here. It's how they think. Look at the Lebanon war which almost destroyed the country BUT they won. The rhetoric echoes the plan...."next time we kill all the Jews and reclaim all the territory."
You know it's true. Until they are thoroughly defeated and forced to surrender and sue for peace like has always happened historically for lasting peace, this shit will continue. You know it's true.
If Hamas has won, and is more empowered, it is not because of Israel, but the world that looks past their war crimes, which are far reaching.
DeleteThe world community should tell Hamas that it will not be recognized because it has flaunted humanitarian law, and the very system that it wants to join.
At least 12 rockets were fired into Israel Wednesday night in the hour after the cease-fire understanding between Israel and Hamas went into effect at 9 p.m., according to police.
ReplyDeleteOne side didn't get the message. Anyone surprised?
Obama ran deflection for Hamas.
DeleteIsrael will continue to take its beating.
And tomorrow, on Thanksgiving, people will congratulate me on the "ceasefire."
The ceasefire won't last long Mike. Surely everyone suspects that. The guarantor is Egypt and all they have done thru all this is blame Israel. The writing is on the wall. And, of course when it breaks down, Israel will get blamed. Same old shit, different day.
ReplyDelete