The person who goes under the moniker "General Choomin" was booted off Daily Kos apparently for racism toward Jews. Although I was a Daily Kos regular for a number of years, I do not actually recall him. I know that he has a reputation for harassing Jewish people and supporters of Israel and I know that he has come on to this site for the purpose of doing so, but I have nonetheless decided to give this gentleman a second chance.
A fresh start, as it were.
But if General Choomin - who is apparently an anti-Semitic anti-Zionist - wants to participate here, then he needs to answer the following question:
So I want General Choomin to answer the question above.
My immediate family was saved because my grandfather had the foresight to seek residency in the United States during the early 1920s, but it is only Israel that is devoted to securing the freedom and security and developing culture of the Jewish people.
I therefore invite General Choomin for a chat.
My only requirement is that he be respectful and not indulge in anti-Zionist hate speech.
But if General Choomin - who is apparently an anti-Semitic anti-Zionist - wants to participate here, then he needs to answer the following question:
Given the fact that Jewish people are among the most persecuted people within recorded history - and given the fact that Jews suffered under the boot of Arab-Muslim imperialism as slaves and dhimmis for thirteen centuries - do you believe that we should be allowed a state on our historical homeland?Anyone who knows this blog with any degree of actual familiarity knows that my father's side of the family was slaughtered by the Nazis in the Ukraine during Operation Barbarossa during World War II. They were not soldiers. They were merchants and farmers and they were lined up and shot dead, along with about 3,000 other Jews in the town of Medzhybizh for no other reason than that they happened to be Jewish.
So I want General Choomin to answer the question above.
My immediate family was saved because my grandfather had the foresight to seek residency in the United States during the early 1920s, but it is only Israel that is devoted to securing the freedom and security and developing culture of the Jewish people.
I therefore invite General Choomin for a chat.
My only requirement is that he be respectful and not indulge in anti-Zionist hate speech.
Jews are also entitled based on Christianity's legacy of persecution and according to law as the recognized indigenous people of their homeland.
ReplyDeleteWhat is anti-Zionist hate speech? Isn't anti-Zionism itself, based on the idea that Zionism is racism, repudiated as morally and legally repugnant?
I believe there should be virtually no requirement concerning expression, except if it incites hatred and imminent violence, which it cannot do here. Or if the comments are intended solely to harass or interfere with the rights of others to receive and impart information.
What this person says reflects on him. It does not scare me. I can respond and ignore at my will, and I need not get into the gutter to do so.
In other words, sometimes the best response is no response. Or simply to point out what the comment represents, without the descent into the gutter.
FWIW
Y'know, School, common sense can go too far.
Delete:O)
In the year 2013, the year in which Israel just celebrated its 65th birthday, there is no question that unless you're, say, a Satmar in Lakewood or Kiryas Joel, anti-Zionism is always hate speech. Some would argue that any form of anti-Zionism is violent hate speech, and I would tend to agree, but at least in the case I note above their motivations are obviously not hatred of Jews.
ReplyDeleteBut before I begin to ramble...
There are no prominent movements calling for the disbanding of any other nation on earth. Anti-Zionism is not 'criticism' of anything. Criticism of a country's policies is not the same thing as calling for its destruction. Nobody calls for the end of Egypt when criticizing Morsi. Nobody calls for the end of the US when criticizing Bush or Obama. For those who try to give themselves an 'out' by saying that they're in favor of disbanding all nation-states, my question is why do they always, 100% of the time, focus on Israel first and solely? I think we know why. It's because 'anti-Zionism' is merely a 'respectable' (in some quarters, sadly) way of hating and harassing Jews these days, with the added 'bonus' of being able to use 'progressive' language while you're doing it, too!
Words are necessary for hate speech.
DeleteAnti-Zionism is a repugnant notion that violates not only the legal right of self-determination, but does so by means of unlawful discrimination.
One cannot stand for universal human rights and dignity of all and practice anti-Zionism.
It's as simple as that.
Well, yeah. When the idea is expressed in words, that's when it becomes hate speech. Sorry for being unclear. ;)
DeleteFully agree on the rest.
I want this anti-Semitic anti-Zionist to tell me just why it is that of all people on the planet, he thinks that the Jewish people do not deserve a national home on the land of our ancestry.
ReplyDeleteLet him explain that to us, if he can.
You know I refute the assertion that you have made in regards to my character. I will not provide anything to disprove these scurrilous accusations against me since they are beneath me. If this is a "fresh start" for you then whats the point?
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to discuss these issues as well as others things then I can do that respectfully if it is on a platform of mutual respect with all participants not being disingenuous.
I have to get up super early tomorrow but if you can be specific about questions or comments I will try to respond. If my response is deleted then that won't say anything about me, but that the ideas on this blog are so fragile that they can't withstand any form of genuine scrutiny. You know... like on volleyboy1's blog...
Up to you.
I think that we can talk.
DeleteMy question for you, tho, is a vital question.
It is this:
Given the fact that Jewish people are among the most persecuted people within recorded history - and given the fact that Jews suffered under the boot of Arab-Muslim imperialism as slaves and dhimmis for thirteen centuries - do you believe that we should be allowed a state on our historical homeland?
We have not spoken much before, if ever before, but I take it that you were on dkos at some point when I was?
I think that if you really want to have a conversation - and I see no reason why we cannot - then I do want to know if you are an anti-Zionist.
I will not delete your response. Just speak the truth as you understand it and try to be fair to the Jewish people.
I would also ask my friends here not to demean this person.
Unlike some of you, I have virtually no history with General Choomin and I want to hear what he has to say for himself... with my own ears.
I would add:
DeleteIf you identify as anti-Zionist, what is the basis for such identification? In other words, how do you define Zionism? Do you believe that Zionism is racism?
If you deny Jewish external self-determination as established internationally by Israel, do you similarly deny it in any other case?
Do you dispute the legitimacy of the San Remo Convention and League of Nations concerning Palestine?
My point of departure, based on the comments here and elsewhere I have seen, is that this individual has no inclination or perhaps ability except to see things through the slanted lens so prevalent among many "anti-racists" developed in Durban that Israel-Zionists-Jews are the root of evil. Talk about racism!
No one should be demeaned at this site no matter what. Using gratuity evidences a weak argument and intolerance that we see only too well across the internet, including among the "anti-racists" that lecture to the rest of us.
I am beginning to get the impression that he may not respond.
Delete{Shocking, I know.}
I think that if General Choomin does return here, and I kind of hope that he does, that we simply ask him the kinds of questions that we have started to ask.
If he can explain to us how it is that our relatives were immoral (racist and fascist) in their attempts to save themselves, and us, from 2,000 years of persecution, then I would like to actually hear the argument.
I think a response will be had. I do not know if he can explain and be consistent with "anti-racist" principles, but if can explain he should refute the appearance of a blatant double standard.
DeleteSince he also knows we are Jews, it would be informant to know what else he identifies as, besides "anti-racist."
It seems to me that the only real argument that he has is that the Jews displaced the "indigenous" population, which gets rather sticky considering we are the indigenous population.
DeleteI have to say, it's a shame that Ziontruth seems to have dropped out because, despite our disagreements, this would be entirely up his alley.
Apparently every single nationalist movement on the planet is copacetic to the antizionists, except of course Zionism. The Arabs get their innumerable flags under each and every nation, under Hamas, under the Muslim Brotherhood, under the Salafists, under Hezbollah, under the Kurds, under Sharia under communism, under the PLO. Eve in Europe - it's fine to dismember Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Great Britain. And it's entirely acceptable to propose that each and every micro community in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq concocted into nations under Sykes Picot be granted their own sub-functional nationhood.
ReplyDeleteEveryone, of course, except the Jews. Funny how I just finished reading Heschel's biography of Maimonides and there were scads of Jews all over the Levant in the 12th century. And I read Rabbi Obadiah of Bentura's travelogue of Israel written around 1488 and there were Jews everywhere you look. And if you peruse the Quran itself, there are stories of Mohammed's 'great' persecution of the Jews of Medina. And it's clear he wasn't talking about France or Frankfurt. To say nothing of the fact that the last 2 books of Torah take place in their entirety in Israel. And they're filled with sometimes strangely boring details like the specific plants, animals and place names there. I mean do you know of ANOTHER Hevron or Megiddo? I don't.
What antisemites want you to believe is that Israel was 'popped' into existence in 1948 out of nothing. But it's clear that Israel was well on its way to being RE established a hundred years before 1948. The declaration of Israel was simply the last step in a long line of steps already in process.
At the end of WW2 3/4ths of billion people lived under the Union Jack. The English Empire was dissolving everywhere. In Asia, in Malay, in the Raj, in South Africa, in East Africa, in West Africa. And in the Mandate as well. The years from 1919 to 1948 in the Mandate are basically a story of British double dealing while attempting to cobble together a bunch of weak nations which would be beholden to them. They inherited "The Sick Man of Europe" the disintegrated Ottoman empire and it served their own purposes not to reconstitute it but instead calve off chunks and declare them nations: Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Bahrain, and so on.
And now here we are 65 years later and the Arab nations are coming apart riven by ethnic, cultural, political differences while the west sits smugly approving of their identity politics and cheers them on to form 20 more 'states' each one dedicated to yet another obscurantist monoculture based in thousand year old racist hatreds.
But not the Jews, oh no that's unacceptable. The Jews don't get a platform of national expression. No sir. That's racist. That's an insult to Islam, Marx and puppies.
Sorry I spent all my free time today watching the excellent documentary "The act of killing". Could you be more concise with your question? Keep it focused on one topic instead of loading it up with several different topics that for me to even answer the question I would have to address?
ReplyDeleteOtherwise I will have to ask how you define specific words, histories, and ideals before I could produce a proper answer.
Produce the answer you want, rather than playing the pseudo intellectual game of "how you define specific words, histories, and ideals before I could produce a proper answer."
DeleteAside from asking you to define Zionism, my questions were specific.
It's like the robot out of "Lost in Space" evil twin, complete with crazy swinging arms and head.
ReplyDelete"That does not compute"