I want to thank Volleyboy1 for his recent foray into our little neck of the Judeosphere.Do you know the man left 42 comments in just two days? In fact, at one point I checked the "recent comments" list and, to my astonishment, saw nothing but Volleyboy1s.
I am convinced that this is an all-time Israel Thrives record and VB should be commended.
42 comments in two days takes tenacity and you have to admire that... I guess.
As you can imagine, within 42 comments there is much going on. Just ask Trudy.
I, however, want to stick to the initial point.
I said:
there is no question that Obama has continually pressured Israel in a very public manner and refuses to do likewise with the Palstinian-Arab leadership. Abbas demands a Judenrein "Palestinian" state and no one, including the President of the United States, seems to mind.To which Volleyboy1 replied:
"No one" minds because there is nothing to pressure the Palestinians with.The audacity of this statement is fairly mind-boggling. It is as if to say that anti-Jewish racism is just dandy because there is nothing that anyone can do about it, anyway.
Is Volleyboy1 suggesting that the Palestinian-Arab people are unique upon the planet in being absolutely immune to international pressure? The implication, quite obviously, is that only the Jews are susceptible to pressure and he apparently approves of this, which is why he spoke in friendly terms of J Street for some while and may very well have been a member.
Volleyboy1 points out that the US already supports Israel at the UN, although such "support" is getting shakier by the moment under the current hostile administration.
Volleyboy1 also notes that the Obama administration is not actually giving weaponry to the PA or Hamas.
Yes, well, I am very grateful that the Obama administration is not supplying Hamas with weaponry with which to kill Jews. That is exceeding gracious and I appreciate it and the Jewish people should thank Barack Obama every chance that we get.
That seems to be the argument.
So what exactly can the U.S. do to the Palestinians? Would you like President Obama to speak against P.A. rhetoric. He does that.The unfriendly president of the United States agrees with Mahmoud Abbas that any future state of "Palestine" must be free of Jews. This is not a matter of "rhetoric," but of policy and it is a toxic policy that he has not disavowed.
You ask: Is Barack Obama opposed to the idea of a Jewish state? Perhaps not.How the hell can Barack Obama support a Jewish state while also supporting the Muslim Brotherhood at a time when they were calling for the conquest of Jerusalem during Morsi's electoral campaign?
The answer is not "Perhaps not". I just showed you above that he expressly supports a "Jewish" State. It is just not the version of the State that you, or the Republican Party, or Conservative Americans, or the Israeli Right might support...
And just what is this insidious "version" of the State of Israel that Volleyboy1's right-wing, conservative, Republican, Likudnik, Orcish enemies are conjuring up that he opposes?
Just who are these Jewish enemies of the Jewish people that Volleyboy1 wants to save them from... aside from you and me?
This is pure stupidity.
Of course, the US and the EU could do enormous things to pressure the Palestinian-Arabs if they wished to.
They do not wish to.
For Volleyboy1 to think that the international community is helpless before Palestinian-Arab malice is both weird and irrational.
It hardly needs to be argued against because it is nonsense on its face.
The EU and the US could defund the PA.
The EU and the US could speak out strongly against Hamas and PA incitement to violence and genocide against the Jewish people, but they do not and Jews like Volleyboy1 are OK with that.
For two years, prior to the stupidly-named Operation Protective Edge last summer, Hamas and affiliates bombarded southern Israel with thousands of rockets making the part of the country around S'derot to be almost unlivable.
Did Obama stand up and say "no"?
Absolutely not. The Obama administration only got agitated when the Israelis finally stood up to say that enough was enough and only then did the administration step in to save Hamas from Israeli retaliation.
Volleyboy1's version of Israel is as a country that is both weak and highly dependent on the good-will of its enemies.
And as for what would replace the PA, does it matter?
The PA calls for the genocide of the Jewish people. Does Volleyboy1 think that whatever might replace it would call for the genocide of the Jewish people twice?
Oslo is over and we need to stop thinking in Oslo terms.
It is time for Israel to move on, if people like Volleyboy1 would stop clinging to their guns and their gods and allow it to do so.
Ultimately, however, the real problem for the Jewish community from people like Volleyboy1 is that he, and those like him, divide us between acceptable Jews (like Barack Obama) and unacceptable ones (like actual Jews).
I sometimes get the sense from this guy that he is keeping a list. Good Jews and Bad Jews.
The Worthy and the Unworthy.
Some are in and some are out and Volleyboy1 - who has arrogantly wondered aloud why I simply do not move to Israel - gets to decide.
MIke,
ReplyDelete1) WOW, that was harsh
2)It is time for Israel to move on, if people like Volleyboy1 would stop clinging to their guns and their gods and allow it to do so. <-- I don't think VB1 clings to guns at all. You mixed in a wrong metaphor there in your rant
3) I agree with much of what you say in here, so don't take the top two points as me dismissing you.
I would say Mike, that you, me and people like us are almost the version of the Jewish black panthers here in the USA. We don't believe that we and our people should be cowed into accepting truly deplorable policies set for by Obama. We don't believe that our version of the "Uncle Toms" (aka DHG) should be the ones we let speak for us to sell us out. We are looked down at because we stand up and are vocal about the rights of our people.
As such, I would ask that VB1 read that last paragraph and try to understand. As he is a very left leaning person such as myself, maybe if he could understand this context, he would be able to see our side of this more clearly.
To answer your last question, I can give you just one word
DeletePOWER
Through Israel, we Jews have a place where we can live and not be prejudiced against
Through Israel, we Jews have a place where we are in power, instead of living at the suffrage of those who would oppress us (both subtly and openly)
Black nationalism will NEVER have that. There is a saying "A lie is easier to swallow when it is wrapped around a kernel of truth" This line I will show you IS a big part of my next point.
Republicans (who most assuredly hate people of color) have always said that Democrats want to keep black people on the plantation. <-- That is the kernel of truth.
This kernel of truth leads to my point that the left DOES want better lives for people of color, but what they do NOT want is for them to be equal! They want their lives better, but do NOT want to give up their white privilege. The left is actually scared of people of color being equal. The left wants to feel righteous about looking after others, UNTIL it encroaches upon themselves.
To bring this back to Israel, well, the Jews have a place where they do not NEED the left's protection. As such Israel is HATED BY THE LEFT. Because Israel refuses to go along with the left's plans (that would in effect destroy Israel and make us wholely dependent upon the suffrage of the left), we are labeled right-wing
This is also why the left while giving very small gains to the black community have not done much of anything for them. Not even Obama. Just as people like DHG continue to sell out our people, Obama has sold out his own people.
Because Israel has power, the left abandons the Jews. We aren't in need of them to protect us against everyone, as we have Israel. The Black Panthers will never have something like Israel (which is why the left will never abandon them, they know that the right hates POC, so all the left has to do is promise and deliver on just small incremental improvements but nothing substantial)
Basically, because we Jews can determine our own fate without needing the left, the left has no use for us. (Except shills like DHG)
Pitt,
Deletewhat you're saying is really interesting.
When you say ( paraphrasing) that the right hate people of color, I'm not sure that is entirely true but I think there definitely have been some serious problems with prejudice in the past. And, I'm sure you can find sections of the right who might still harbour some prejudices. What I think is much more interesting, is the notion that the left, who claim to be the anti- racists, the believers in equality, and who talk about how important this is all the time, are, in fact, not really concerned with equality. You posit the idea that this is because they don't want to give up their white privilege. I think there is some truth in that. But, I think, by far the most significant observation is that the left want to help people up to a point, but no more, because if people were really helped to be able to live autonomous lives, the left would then find themselves redundant.. This is very similar in British politics. It has been suggested that this is much more to do with how many people 'on the left' need to think about themselves, than anything else. In other words, less to do with ideas around economic or social threat, and much more to do with the types of personalities who are, in these times, drawn to be vocal on the left. There is something truly appalling about labelling yourself as a fighter for social justice, when what you are really engaged in is a kind of display of your own narcissism. Many on the left, seem to want to keep people of colour - or in the UK, BAME people - as kinds of 'pets.' To serve a purpose, which is to give them something, or someone, to act in the role of protector to. I think this is far more damaging as it suggests they are not aware of their own psychological need to polish their image at the expense of trying to effect real change. This sort of narcissistic behaviour seems to, now, be endemic on the left. And enormously alarming. When your 'politics' is driven, not by an honest desire to work towards reform, but a means to signal how virtuous you are, it has become toxic.
And, hugely significantly, it has become the last thing you really want to do, to help people ( of any kind) to be free to make their own lives and decisions, and to be free. We see this in the left's contempt for any black, African American, Hispanic, etc., person in American public- life who dares to arrive at their own conclusions about politics and economics, and is more conservative- minded. If you really believed in equality, it must be that you believe that every individual human being has the right to think for themselves, and to choose their own opinions. I think of the way the left is contemptuous and dismissive about people like Thomas Sowell. They think nothing of throwing our unpleasant racial epithets ( coconut, Oreo,Uncle Tom) at anyone who doesn't follow their script. It makes one wonder how deep their 'belief' in equality really can be.
Similarly, their " care" for the Palestinians, seems much more to do with how they need to view themselves, and how much 'applause' they receive from their peers, than in doing anything that actually does help the Palestinians.
It is a gigantic exercise in polishing their own moral credentials - in a very vociferous way- rather than a serious and honest attempt to effect useful change. And, hating Israel, has become a part of that same psychological need.
I was waiting for Mike's response to the question I answered.
DeleteWhat are your thoughts about it?
Pitt,
Deletethank you for you patience.
I suspect that your emphasis on power is correct.
It's interesting because when I look at the Jews of the Middle East I see a competent and intelligent and resourceful people who have been succesful despite lack of power and while being under perpetual seige.
They may have a degree of power, now, but they certainly did not in the 50s and 60s.
And, even today, with Israel at its height in terms of power, we are still looking at 6 million Jews surrounded by 400 million Arabs who, generally speaking, do not want them there.
As for the Left, they've always had a Love-Hate thing for Jewish people.
They allegedly love us when we are weak but definitely despise us when we are not.
Kate,
DeleteI very much hope that you do not mind me saying so, but you should consider paragraph breaks.
"There is something truly appalling about labelling yourself as a fighter for social justice, when what you are really engaged in is a kind of display of your own narcissism."
My suspicion is that the kind of moral narcissism that you are referring to has been a part of politics since the beginning of human kind and, certainly, we are not innocent of it.
In fact, the question of morality is at the heart of the matter.
From the birth of Christianity until Vatican Council II, the Church officially considered the Jewish people immoral for killing Jesus in much the same way that current Islamic authorities still blame the Jews for killing "the prophets."
"Similarly, their " care" for the Palestinians, seems much more to do with how they need to view themselves, and how much 'applause' they receive from their peers, than in doing anything that actually does help the Palestinians."
I tend to agree with you.
Most leftist anti-Zionist activists, whether white or Arab or Muslim, tend to like "Palestinians" in the abstract.
They certainly do not like them in reality for, if they did, they might oppose Abbas' plan to keep them in camps, in Judea and Samaria, in-perpetuity.
"The EU and the US could defund the PA." If only. Before the self inflicted Oslo lunacy the only "western" source of PA funding was UNRWA. Now it doesn't matter what arabs say or do, the funding can't be cut off because too many are feeding at the trough, and not just at the receiving (PA) end.
ReplyDeleteDefunding them seems impossible. Even Israel believes that. Still, to be aggressive in addressing their wrongs does not seem like asking too much. One could start with the way they abuse their kids. In this day and age there is no excuse to be silent about this behavior.
DeleteCan't be defunded? Oh well let's throw up our hands!
DeleteNothing can be done until you decide to do something and act on it.
Little by little and in increments is how one affects change. We can start by telling the truth.
Who said anything about not telling the truth? Or not using the panoply of soft power?
DeleteI suggested a UN trusteeship, where the ruling powers would be responsible for security, wean the people away from the poison they get and try to create economic opportunity for the people. It would take Israel out of the equation so long as it was not necessary for self-defense, the right of every state under the UN Charter.
Defunding would destabilize, but they should clearly weed out money used to pay for jailed terrorists, and create incentives.
"No one" minds because there is nothing to pressure the Palestinians with. " -VB1
ReplyDelete"The audacity of this statement is fairly mind-boggling. It is as if to say that anti-Jewish racism is just dandy because there is nothing that anyone can do about it, anyway." -ML
This strikes me as a problem with much of the conventional wisdom today - the Jews are seen reasonable and are known historically for negotiation and compromise, so let's get them to make concessions. When they show an unwillingness to do so they are blamed for everything and called and treated as Nazis, which shows a maliciousness which is beyond the Pale. Whereas the Arabs can't be changed. They are immutable, so we must deal with them this way. They are but animals that must be cared for. Pretty disgusting. The multicultural ideal is in full flower.
Not to mention it is a bigoted view that Palestinians are incapable to live by enlightened, modern norms about how to treat people.
DeleteThe double standard is antisemitic. It's prevalent in the thinking of many leftists, who pretend to be liberal, yet act to deny Jewish people their right of self-determination by failing to pressure Palestinians and Iranians and Europeans to cut the crap.
Actual liberals speak out and practice Western values, often at great personal danger, and most vociferously attacked by leftists they expose.
Can't be defunded?
ReplyDeleteToo many snouts in the trough?
Is that it?
I agree with School.
We need to speak loudly and often about Arab-Palestinian incitement to violence against Jews and our friends like, for example, Barack Obama, might consider doing so, as well, in a consistent, sincere, and serious manner.
We have to stop making excuses not merely for Arab-Muslim anti-Semitism, but for the Jihad, more generally.
Y'know, sometimes I regret using the ostrich image in my pieces concerning left-wing Zionism... but then other times I look out upon that part of the world and I am infuriated out how blasé people are.
Christians are being chased out of the Middle East everywhere but Israel and no one seems to care.
I am sorry, but the hypocrisy of the Left is simply jaw dropping and I can only take so much of it in any 48 hour period.
Anti-Semitism followed the Jews home.
Delete"The EU and the US could speak out strongly against Hamas and PA incitement to violence and genocide against the Jewish people, but they do not..."
ReplyDeleteDoing so would put the EU, at least, at cross purposes against their policy of pretending that none of those things go on.
Which is why we need to bang their heads together.
DeleteThe old English Jewish tactic of putting one's head down and hoping for the best is not what is needed.
We need bold leadership who are willing to tell the international Powers That Be that the Jewish people have a right to our own homeland free from harassment by Arabs.
We will accept anyone as a natural-born citizen to the country so long as they are not hostile to Jewish sovereignty and self-defense.
We have to stop equivocating.
And we must stop using terms like "West Bank" which blithely erase 4,000 years of Jewish history.
We need to stand the f**k up.
"Volleyboy1's version of Israel is as a country that is both weak and highly dependent on the good-will of its enemies."
ReplyDeleteI take it that here you are alluding to the long and tragic diaspora strategy for survival.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteThe Jewish Left believes that Israel is guilty of the Occupation and persecution of the Palestinian people.
That is, the Jewish Left begins from the premise of Israeli Jewish guilt.
Because they begin from that premise they can never win the argument with anti-Israel people because the argument is ceded before it is begun.
Thus they tend to think that Israel must compromise more. It must offer further concessions. Above all it must keep the misnamed "peace process" alive. It must reform its allegedly racist society. It must jump through all sorts of hoops and more hoops are constantly being manufactured.
This has had, over the years, the effect of emboldening Israel's enemies, while weakening her resolve.
Given the starting premise of Israeli Jewish guilt it has also inclined the European countries to turn on Israel.
Why should they not when even intelligent and well-meaning Jewish supporters of Israel agree that it is an unjust power dominating a minorty population?
In this way you end up with a country that is both weak and dependent upon the good-will of its enemies.
All I can say is that for all the people who seemingly elevate 3rd-world-ism to some kind of near religious experience they need to experience it first hand. And not as a tourist. As a local. My experience was that when they broke into the house they'd steal food and clothing not consumer electronics. So we just left sacks of food and clothing outside by the front door. It's not heroic it's not quaint, it's not romantic it's not revolutionary. It's mind bending poverty hardship and suffering. And liberals think it's somehow demeaning to hire a household staff of 5 or 6 but that's the only job anyone in their family will have, that's the only way those people can scrape together the money to not have rags on their backs. It's not some insufferable Smithsonian magazine article with smiling brown and black faces.
ReplyDeleteSee here's the thing. All this liberation theology bullshit, is just that, bullshit. And the White Man's Burden is just that. I really don't understand Americans and Westerners sometimes. I watch that movie "A Few Good Men" and I root for Jack Nicholson because I'll be damned if I see anyone else will doing that job.
Tell the Arabs to wrest whatever god damned destiny out of the dirt they can, on their own, for themselves and shut the every loving fuck up about anyone or anything else.
Trudy,
DeleteWhere are you from? I have been wanting to know that for a while.
Many American Jews are out of touch with their brethren in Israel and the Diaspora, yet, interestingly, they feel more warmth to Netanyahu than Obama.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/j-street-poll-us-jews-love-bibi-netanyahu/2014/11/06/
Progressive Zionists kid themselves that Obama is really a friend, and he is certainly not the friend he claims. No friend would have been in Wright's church for 20 years. Few progressives are Zionists at all, even among Jews, and increasing numbers of progressives are not even liberal if we look around to what is happening, where identity itself is viewed as the ultimate achievement.
From advance notice, Oren's book will tear the cover off the facade of friendship further. As it should. In so many instances, rather than choose the high road, Obama has gone the other way. He is out of touch with most Americans on this issue.
How many Americans would answer yes to the question of whether the president should publicly speak out more against Palestinian violations, rather than hold Israel to a higher standard, which constitutes discrimination?