Michael L.
In one of David Harris-Gershon's anti-Israel / anti-Jewish hit pieces we get the following claim by someone who goes under the moniker rktect.
In one of David Harris-Gershon's anti-Israel / anti-Jewish hit pieces we get the following claim by someone who goes under the moniker rktect.
Speaking with a weak Daily Kos pro-Israel Jew, rktect says, in part, the following:
Now you want to blow up our homes, build walls through our fields, cut us off from our water, what gives you the right this time?Let that statement sink in for a bit. Every time Jews move into a community in large numbers, according to this vile schmuck, we are treated with hospitality and commiseration, but we inevitably turn around and give them a "stack in the back," which is what Germans thought about the 1 percent of Jews that made up the German population in the early twentieth-century.
Every time people let you come to where they live and treat you with hospitality and commiserate with your suffering trust you to treat them the same way they end up getting removed in some way.
These kinds of comments will only continue to increase because, in part, progressive-left Jews essentially agree with the "Palestinian narrative" of perfect victimhood. Progressive-left pro-Israel Jews have abandoned the field because they have no argument to make. They agree that "Zionists" stole the land from the "native Palestinians" which is why they must morally oppose "settler activity" - i.e., Jews purchasing homes for themselves in Judea and Samaria. If that is what they think then it's time to pack it in and that is essentially what they have done throughout progressive-left venues.
Well, in truth, they were chased out.
On Daily Kos almost no one bothers writing pro-Israel / pro-Jewish "diaries" anymore. There are a number of reasons for this. The pro-Israel Jews are well-outnumbered by anti-Semitic anti-Zionists. When they do try to defend Israel they usually get malice spit into their faces. And, most importantly, they do not honestly believe that the Jews are the rightful owners of Erez Israel.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteat some point you're going to have to realise that progressives don't just hate Jews because of the Palestinian narrative, it goes much deeper than that. The Palestinian narrative is enormously effective but it has served many purposes. One of those is that it has become the 'peg' on which pre-existing anti-Semitism and old-fashioned Jew-hated can hang itself. And hang itself while disguising itself as 'mere' anti-Zionism. The origins of Jew-hatred on the left go a very long way back and are bound-up in Marx's writings and the pronouncements of leading Marxist figures. Their ravings about Jewish capitalists and bankers etc. are indistinguishable from the far-right. It doesn't matter that most people on the left are not actually proper Marxists, especially in America, what matters is the way the major icon of left-wing thinking introduced those conspiracy theories and repellent views and the extent to which the left have never been able to admit that. Marx did something Hitler didn't do; he made conspiracy theories about Jews being responsible for all the ills of the world respectable . For the most part, Hitler is treated as a pariah by academics and the intelligentsia, but Marx and his followers are treated as the bedrock of understanding left-wing philosophy.
It doesn't matter whether the people at the Daily Kos have actually read Marx, those ideas have filtered down into popular thinking and discourse. The Palestinian narrative could only take hold because of what already existed. And that is a heady mix of age-old theological based anti-Semitism and the various kinds of political anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, it has been little understood - and very deliberately whitewashed - how much of that political anti-Semitism actually emanates from the left.
What we are seeing in Europe - and certainly in the UK at the moment - is the virulence of that hatred very much coming from the most 'progressive' and leftist political parties and supporters.
It is pretty to think that virulent Jew-hatred has been the monopoly of the right, but quite historically untrue. That's why it was named "the socialism of fools."
"at some point you're going to have to realise that progressives don't just hate Jews because of the Palestinian narrative"
DeleteYou think that I don't know that?
You honestly think that I am ignorant of the long history western-left Jew hate?
You are mistaken.
Mike,
DeleteI know you know. Of course I do.
It's just that however important it is to try and logically deconstruct the Palestinian narrative and its history and origins, it misses out something that is, perhaps, more important. And that is that what we are all witnessing is a re-emergence of something that is as old as the hills. Something, perhaps, that has been less influential in American culture up until now but with which other parts of the world are all too familiar with. Especially Europe.
Today in London there was a strongly advertised rally for the Stop the War Coalition to protest and draw attention to the appalling suffering and carnage going on in Syria. Against Assad and against ISIS. In the last few days reports coming out of Syria are clear that the Syrian regime is deliberately targeting hospitals and civilians. Over and over again. With horrifying consequences. The UN have endorsed that. Terrible numbers of women and children being injured and killed. Deliberately. Peter Tatchell, a very prominent hard-left campaigner against all the usual things was organizing it. He is supporting Jeremy Corbyn's leadership bid, Corbyn is a founder of the STWC. Virtually no-one showed up
Tatchell tweeted that it was a "betrayal."
When someone on his twitter asked him why people hadn't bothered to go to the rally, he tweeted that ( paraphrasing) the western-left only bother to turn up if people are being oppressed by the US or Israel.
He's right. But I don't imagine that the full meaning of that will sink in and in any way make him consider his positions.
He can see what is happening but he can't see it.
And so it will all go on.
Because it's none of it about what it purports to be about. And never has been.
Try telling that to the western- left, though.
They are not motivated by the perceived injustices of history, they are motivated by something much darker and more visceral. And it seems that that is becoming out of control. Again.
In Europe, again. In America, maybe for the first time.
We need to address that. It's only going to get worse. For all of us. Sadly.
There is a quote that is entirely appropriate, from the historian Norman Cohn.
I will link it in below comment.
Kate,
Delete"what we are all witnessing is a re-emergence of something that is as old as the hills."
Maybe.
You are among the best friends that this blog has ever had. That is unquestionably the case, but I am not so certain of the claim above.
Do you think that we are heading into a second Holocaust via a Shiria bomb?
The Left is betting that the Ayatollahs are rational.
They may very well be correct, but what I do not understand is why to make the wager?
Hi Mike,
DeleteI think the Iran deal poses serious threats, of course. I would not trust them one inch. I think people are absolutely right to be seriously concerned about its implications.
However, what I am referring to is,something else.
You once wrote me that it would be good to have someone from Europe contributing to the blog. In Europe we have something of a different history and a different contemporary experience. Our culture is marred and scarred in ways that for obvious reasons America's and Australia's are not. I do not wish in any way to play down the anti-Semitism experienced in America or Australia, or that which your parents and grandparents experienced. However ( again ), anti-Semitism knows no boundaries. And the world is getting smaller by the day. Ideas and attitudes which were once mostly confined to Europe are spreading into what have been "safe" places. Europe is in the grip of something that I do not think can be stopped. No, I do not believe there will be state-sponsored hostile activity towards Jews, but that is not the only thing that matters. What can happen in the twenty- first century will not be the same as what happened in 1930's Europe.
What can, and is happening, is this: The culture and climate in which European Jews have to live is becoming more and more unpleasant. More normalisation of jew-hatred and more casual scapegoating of Jews for all the problems people face.
Many things are feeding into this. Economic downturn - which always produces rises in anti-Semitism, changes in demographics - some of which mean more people living in European countries who have strong cultural antipathies towards Jews, and the collapse of confidence in western liberal democracies about their own cultures and history. Jews are a very small constituency in most European countries, and other groups, particularly Muslims, are increasingly more important and listened to than Jews. The western -left, as we know, has an obsession with Israel and will not give that up. We can see that also in the EU which has a particular animus towards Israel. Their actions speak to that.
It is difficult, I think, for Americans and others to grasp how this is all part of a cycle.
A short glance at history shows us that it has never been able to keep the lid on anti-Semitism for very long; if at all. The difference now is that America etc is not immune. Europe is used to this periodic derangement, America is not. But derangement is like wild-fire. It needs very little to spread. And is almost impossible to stop.
That's my thesis: What is happening is getting scarily out of control.
Movements to boycott, asking Jews to denounce Israel, screaming "Death to the Jews" " Hitler was right." on the streets of European capitals. All normal now.
Who's going to stop that? And how?
They won't. Can't.
We are teaching it in our schools - to 5 year-olds - and in our universities. Our media pumps anti-Israel / anti- Jewish propaganda out into tens of millions of homes. On top of that the Internet is covered in anti-Semitic conspiracy theories which perfectly normal people read and accept as true. You hear this filtered down in casual conversations all the time. You cannot switch that off. Many European Jews say the Internet is the thing that concerns them the most. And their children.
I quoted Norman Cohn on another thread.
And a commenter called 'Marge'.
Both of them - in very different ways- are describing where we are now, I think.
And unfortunately, there is no reason why what they both say will not apply to people outside Europe.
What exactly would happen, I don't know. But will it happen? It seems likely.
Actually I quoted Norman Cohn on this thread.
DeleteMarge is quoted on the other one.
* We should come back to this subject, I think. I cannot stress enough how important I think it is.
Quote:
ReplyDeleteIt is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, captures, and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.
End quote.
Norman Cohn ,
Warrant for Genocide the Myth of the Jewish World Conspiracy, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
P.18.
Nick Cohen linked to this on his twitter today.
He says this quote has been his "guide' for many years.
I think it is now, more than ever, worth taking seriously.
Great posts, k.
DeleteHi Jeff.
DeleteIn case you're interested, this is, so far, the best article about what is happening in the UK at the moment. Several people have tried to write "this article" but I think this one stands out.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/1327077-stephen-daisley-on-jeremy-corbyn-the-left-anti-semitism-and-israel/
k,
Delete"The hallmark of a bigot is seizing on dissonant voices within a minority community and using them to delegitimise the mainstream of that community."
Well said.
k,
DeleteThen there was this:
"There is nothing anti-Semitic about sympathising with the plight of the Palestinians (though it might be nice to recognise their culpability in the conflict too)."
It might be nice? To me this is always the telltale sign of just how far things have gotten out of hand in Britain. It should be more than "nice" to recognize the Palestinian Arabs' culpability, but rather necessary, for it is the main obstacle to ending the conflict, i.e., the Arab war against the Jews.
k,
DeleteAnd to continue on the same point, the paragraph continues...
"There is nothing anti-Semitic about lacerating Israel for walls and checkpoints and bombs..."
There certainly is something wrong with lacerating Israel for "walls," and checkpoints, etc., the first being calling a fence a wall, but let's not belabor that at this time. What's wrong with it is that no one else would ever put up with the shit Israel must put up with! And no one else does, or is even expected to. Walls and fences (and checkpoints) are built around the world today as they were in the past to protect populations from those implacable foes that mean them harm. But in today's Britain, writers defending Israel (with very few exceptions) must always throw the public a bone where it is "O.K." to obsess about Israel, i.e., to give in, to say that Israel is unnecessarily mean in some way. This is how the British public has been whittled down, and, frankly, I am sick of it! For crying out loud, Britain a 1st world country with actual libraries brought down to the level of a 3rd world, illiterate sink hole.
Hey Britain, go take a flying fuck and have a look at your own wart ridden face and stop marching around saying "Well, once upon a time we did some naughty things, but now we're quite wonderful and condemning Israel buys you a ticket on the train to Righteousville." Fuck you !
If someone had in mind for Britain what the Arabs have in mind for Israel, the British would have a nice polite conversation with them, and then blast them to fucking smithereens! Who are we kidding?
Other than that the article was quite good and I liked it very much.
Jeff,
DeleteI'd agree with nearly all of that but for the bit about Britain thinking it's quite wonderful now. The left, as that's who we are talking about, are utterly mired in a kind of deranged self-loathing. It's of extraordinary proportions. And second only to their hatred of America. It's probably their defining characteristic. They loathe their own country and the whole of western civilization. They believe it is the worst thing in the world. The root of all evil, and Israel and Jews are tied up in all that in several ways.
The self-loathing of the left has been their driving force for many years and is pumped out to the wider population via the BBC and our media and the education system. It seems to have no ends. It's as though they need to destroy it. You're right in saying the British public has been "whittled down" but it's about everything. They, from childhood upwards, are constantly told how guilty and evil this country and its past is. Not dissimilar to the American left and its constant need to do that.
By the way, even those who support Israel have to make it abundantly clear how much they deplore and hate the Israeli rightwing. Especially the Likud and, of course, Netanyahu. There is a growing petition to have him arrested for war-crimes if he comes to the UK.
The only paper from Israel that is ever quoted here is Haaretz. Even by our rightwing press.
I was reading what the commenters on the Daily Kos are saying and compared to here it's like nothing. That's like 'jew-hatelite' compared to an ordinary day in our comments section and social media. With the campaign for Corbyn gaining in hysteria, the level of hatred and vileness is completely out of control, and will never be put back in the box. You should see what high-profile people on twitter who have names that are Jewish - and people who are obviously not Jewish - are being clobbered with. Anyone who is on the left who is not supporting Corbyn is being accused of the most hideous stuff. It's frightening and disgusting.
k,
DeleteA rejection of western liberal democracy and a penchant for ascribing a sinister role to Jews. Where have I heard that before?
Just imagine if Israelis petitioned their government to arrest every "activist" who showed up at Ben Gurion airport, as war criminals. They do give aid and comfort to an enemy that blows up pizzerias filled with innocent children for the very reason that those children are Jewish. Perhaps they could begin with the Guardian's Peter Beaumont, whose uses the cover of journalism for his unwholesome propaganda activities on behalf of the murderous thugs of the PLO, Hamas, and the rest of the gang.
These so-called "anti-racist human rights warriors," i.e., anti-Zionists, want to own terms like Nazi and racist. From my point of view they already do, but just not in the way they intend or would have us believe.
"The only paper from Israel that is ever quoted here is Haaretz."
Yes, we have a lot of that over here too, as if Haaretz is Israel's major daily. What a joke.
A few years back we had the spectacle of 60 Minutes' Bob Simon doing a puff piece on Gideon Levy, the "conscience" of Israel. I couldn't imagine him getting away with giving Noam Chomsky the same treatment on American TV. Had he let Chomsky roll the way let Levy bloviate, he'd have been sacked.
"With the campaign for Corbyn gaining in hysteria, the level of hatred and vileness is completely out of control.."
Just imagine if he were black!
Jeff.
Delete"Gideon Levy, the conscience of Israel."
Hmm...
"The conscience of Brazil.." "The conscience of Egypt." " The conscience of Iran." " The conscience of Russia." Nope. Can't see it catching on.
Wonder why.
Having said that, I'm sure Chomsky would be up for it on American tv. It does seem to be his lifelong ambition. His self-appointed role.
Although Obama is doing a pretty good job at being America's" Apologiser-in-Chief." And "Chief Scold."
Over here people are busy explaining to non-Corbyn supporters on social media that Corbyn can't possibly be anti-Semitic because Gilad Atzmon agrees with him.
Or are linking to amazingly useful articles from Mondoweiss and EF.
I'm pretty sure David Icke endorsed him the other day. I think that actually happened.
It can only get worse.
Also, really good blog by Ed West:
Deletehttp://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/08/the-short-road-from-anti-westernism-to-anti-semitism/
Re comment above:
DeleteCorrection: 'EI' not 'EF'.
Jew haters never change. Here's Robert, I hate Israel more than anything, Fisk's latest on ISIS.:
ReplyDelete" Why does Isis never attack Israel – indeed, why does its hatred of Crusaders and Shias and Christians and sometimes Jews rarely if ever mention the very word “Israel”?.....It’s not the violence in Isis videos and Dabiq we should be concentrating on. It’s what the Isis leadership don’t talk about, don’t condemn, don’t mention upon which we should cast our suspicious eye. But that, of course, also means asking some questions of Turkey, America, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel. Are we up to this? Or are we going to let Isis stop us at last from carrying out one of the first duties of our trade – reporting the “other side of the story”?"
IOW...ignore ISIS's barbaric brutality and get back to dissing the big and little Satan....especially the little one.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/isis-blinds-journalists-with-its-barbarity-but-we-must-continue-to-report-10468294.html
Doodad,
DeleteI hadn't seen that article. That's an extraordinary example of everything that is wrong with the western- left. Even worse than the stuff about how ISIS are all our fault, and America's, of course, is the horrifying implication of a conspiracy theory. I can't see what else that is.
Corbyn is on record as saying that behind ISIS are " shadowy forces." One can only wonder. He is the worst sort of nut-job conspiracy theorist. He believes every conspiracy theory going. He is on youtube declaring that NATO is trying to start a high-tech war with Russia. Corbyn's rise has unleashed into the full mainstream conspiracy theories about everything. We are now living in a climate where anything is being said and legitimised. Conspiracy theories drive the western-left, as they drive the far-right. It is sad and shocking.
Someone asked Nick Cohen on twitter yesterday whether he could do an update for his book " What's Left?" he replied that he couldn't bear to have to spend another minute in their company. Like several other left-wing commentators he is disgusted with them. None of it makes any difference, though. There is something truly horrible going on.
We are evil but ISIS are " lost souls." That pretty much sums it up.
And there are plenty of people out there who are lapping it up.
With Corbyn's prominence, the future looks very bad. Very bad.
"Conspiracy theories drive the western-left, as they drive the far-right."
Deletek. you are so right. Nutjobs, magical thinking, la la land.
Doodad,
Deletesome of the stuff that Corbyn is on record as saying is quite staggering. As a regular on RT and Press TV he has has made claims that are off the scale.
About everything and anything. It's astonishing that he can be taken seriously by so many people.
On a lighter note ( not really) he has said we should withdraw from NATO.
Oh, and he once called for an inquiry into "Jewish influence in the Tory party."
So, nothing to worry about, then.
There's plenty of stuff on youtube with him, if you can bear it.
RT and Press TV? Well right there is the clue. The guy is a nutcase as are all those who contribute to those insane asylums and those who take them seriously.
Deletehttp://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/143148/corbyn-supporters-post-vile-racism-and-he-says-nothing-says-louise-mensch
ReplyDeleteDoodad,
Deleteafter reading that article, Simon Myerson QC checked out what Louise M. was saying. If you go to his twitter from Thursday morning in UK time and follow his links you will get some idea of what is being said.
Also, if you're interested. Some other people on Twitter over here who are worth looking at at the moment are:
DeleteDavid Aaronovitch
Oliver Kamm
Jeremy Duns
Nick Cohen
Danny Finklestein
There are others I'll think of later.
K.
Please read this article. Nick Cohen in Standpoint magazine:
ReplyDelete... Until now the hypocritical, and in my view despicable, strain of thought that Corbyn represents has been dominant in the universities, the arts, political comedy and much, but not all, of the left-wing media....
... They did not understand that cultural power will become political power if no one takes the time to challenge it.
http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/6195/full
It does seem, for the most part, that the people who write for the Daily Kos and the people who read it are, apart from anything else, really quite dumb.
ReplyDeleteI apologise because I know people on this blog used to participate. "Used to" being significant.
Whatever one thinks about the extraordinary rise of Donald Trump, his various pronouncements about immigration do not in any conceivable way form an equivalence with the Nazi's rhetoric about Jews. It reminds me of the equally ridiculous - and frankly disgraceful - slogans about George Bush being Hitler. Either these people are so stunningly ignorant that they have no grasp of history, or they are prepared to say anything for political point-scoring. Or, most likely, both.
This over-used hyperbolic style of journalism - essentially translated as "Republicans are evil" is exceedingly tiresome and indicative of a lack of any serious ability to form a coherent argument.
Not dissimilar to Obama's method by which he labels anyone who disagrees with him or questions any aspect of his policies as " bad" or " stupid."
I see that Josh Earnest has had to slightly walk-back the comment about opponents of the Iran deal being "crazies "
Wasn't it Obama who campaigned on saying he wanted to bring an end to incivility in political discourse?
"Wasn't it Obama who campaigned on saying he wanted to bring an end to incivility in political discourse? "
DeleteHe also said Jerusalem belongs to Israel, then walked it back and then some. He laid out red lines for any "deal" with the Islamic Republic of Iran, and then caved in to get a deal under any circumstances. He pushed through "Obamacare" and said you could keep your doctor and your health plan. He said his Administration would be the most transparent in history. He has said a lot of things, just don't hold him to them.
Jeff,
DeleteI seem to recall a "red line" to do with Syria as well.
It's interesting how most of the world has learned to understand that what President Obama says can be safely ignored, but judging by the American media - and our media over here- you would have no idea of that.
I think it's a year since the so-called strategy against ISIL started. I'm not sure whether the White House has been rushing to give any updates on how that's going. There have been reports from US intelligence services that they were asked to deliberately downplay the bad news on that front.
I can't imagine there has been another administration in US history that has been so little held to account. On everything.
Jeff and Kate,
DeleteAnd you know who encouraged Obama to walk back the Jerusalem claim?
Dershowitz.
As for the Islamic State, I have a strategy.
I call it "obliteration."
I don't believe in evil. That is, I do not believe in some metaphysical force that is in opposition to good and that typically in the English-speaking West goes by the name of "Satan."
However, these guys are the closest thing to evil that I have seen since coming to political awareness.
They bury children alive?
I say we bury them.
I didn't know that about Dershowitz.
DeleteInteresting.
I'm beginning to find the spectacle of people who vehemently disagree with Obama about the Iran deal but who still support Obama, more than fascinating.
I can't think of anything that would break the spell.
Maybe it is now impossible for most American Jews to not be a part of the entire culture that goes to make up being a Democratic party supporter. One would have to divorce oneself from far more than a "vote." One would have to eschew the universities, the media ( stop reading the NYT and the WaPo, LA Times etc.), the "cool" comedy, and all the artists and writers, movies and movie-type people. And, I suppose, one would feel one had to "give up" being seen as a natural heir to the liberal movements of the Sixties. Not to mention all one's friends. That's too much to ask. Better and safer to stay in the club. The cultural impact of leaving that club - even to become an independent - is too overwhelming.
As far as defeating ISIS is concerned, I can't see where the political will would come from. Not from America. Well, certainly not if your next president is another Democrat. And it looks like that will be the case, one way or another. DNC still hanging on to Hillary. If that changes, you get Biden. ( With Elizabeth Warren as VP.) Biden will do whatever Obama wants him to do. Warren is Obama the Second. With bells on.
Yes, that's true. Which is horrible and alarming. The white-supremacist brigade seem to have jumped on this bandwagon. Many conservatives are busy pointing that out and arguing with those sorts on social media. And calling them exactly what they are.
ReplyDeleteTrump doesn't seem to be an ideologue of any kind himself. He appears to be a ludicrous megalomaniac who should be taken seriously by no one. He has little consistency in his views and, I think, has supported Democrats in the past. He seems to be in it entirely for his own ego. It's interesting to try and work out why on earth he is producing this kind of effect. He has obviously tapped into some things that people feel strongly about. I would imagine that one of those is seeing someone who really doesn't seem to care what anyone ( the media etc) thinks. And looking ( falsely) like he's an anti- establishment vote. There's so much anger at the whole political establishment that he seems to be positioning himself as the antidote to it.
Importantly, his actual positions are not in keeping with that image and he has in the past flip-flopped all over the place.
He seems to be offering people a chance to be unashamedly proud to be an American. It is a measure of how absent or frowned- upon that sentiment is in contemporary American discourse that anyone ( however ludicrous) who bounces in with that message is so seductive. Of course, his concentration on the issue of immigration is massively controversial and is going to attract the people you mentioned. However, I would imagine that many people supporting him don't hold appalling views on race but are looking for other things. It would be extraordinary if he is the candidate who ends up winning the nomination for the GOP. Extraordinary and extraordinarily awful. One can only hope his polling figures start to drop. There's no sign of that yet, sadly.