Arabs are killing Jews left and right in Israel so what do the bright lights at that antisemitic swamp dKos wanna talk about? The USS Liberty...oh, and how maybe Israel also did the USS Cole and 9/11 too. Gotta love those Democrats with right wing conspiracy theories.
One guy is like, "Persecuted Jews? Where? When? What are you talking about?" which prompts David H to publish that long list of pogroms and expulsions.
And, gee, no one can figure out just why it is that Israel's neighbors want to see it destroyed.
These guys see racism under every rock in Europe and the United States, yet they cannot seem to find it anywhere in the entire Middle East with the lone, sole exception of Israel.
There seems to be a direct correlation at places like Daily Kos, wherein the less one knows about Jewish history, the more they seem to feel they're the experts with insight that everyone else needs to listen to.
The ignorance is astonishing. I almost had to pick my jaw up off the floor after reading that one moron's comment asking when Jews have ever been persecuted in Europe...
Yep Jay... I feel the same way... The ignorance is astonishing. It's like their whole sources of information are Al-Jazeera,and al-Quds... There is absolutely no understanding of what Israel is or what it was created to be. It's mind boggling how uninformed and ridiculous the commentary is there.
"Although Muslims have been prominent in aggressive demonstrations against Israel in the UK, the real problem lies with non-Muslim Brits. Knowing virtually nothing abut the Middle East or the history of the Jewish people, they have have fallen overwhelmingly for the falsehoods, distortions, selective reporting and Arab blood libels disseminated week in, week out by the British media. The malice of a disturbing number of MPs and the two-faced attitudes of the Foreign Office don't help either."
"If you want to be a card-carrying member (15+ / 0-)
of the progressive movement, you have to be anti-Israel. There is no room for those who support a Jewish state. Here, on DK, you have to be pro-Palestinian, even if that means making excuses for the extremist Islamist Hamas government and looking the other way when Palestinians drive their cars into Israeli bus stops and kill innocent Israelis. But when an Israeli commits a similar murder, you write a diary and bask in your status on the Rec List.
If you aren't down with this, then you ought to leave or stay the hell out of I-P diaries. Your opinion is not sought and not valued.
It's the Supreme Court, stupid!
by Radiowalla on Tue Nov 11, 2014 at 05:49:07 PM PST"
Yet they're not even 'pro-Palestinian,' or otherwise they'd be constantly whipping up outrage over Syria, the apartheid conditions Palestinian-Arabs face in every Arab nation, etc etc.
It's clear that that those Daily Kos clowns are not 'pro-Palestinian' in any way whatsoever.
Mike - I think there are a number of steps that need to be tried and in the end if not successful then I believe unilateralism might be the only way (along the lines of a modified Alon / Olmert - Livni plan). I realize that, unilateralism did not work in Gaza so perhaps a "different" kind of unilateralism is needed. What do I mean when I say a "different kind of unilateralism"? It means that I think there needs to be a new approach and I am wrestling with just what my opinion of that approach should be.
NOTE: I say "should be" but only in the context of this as an intellectual exercise NOT what I would demand of the Israelis.
Anyway, I have been thinking about this a lot lately and where I certainly cannot subscribe to a One State Plan OR a plan like the Bennett Plan as both are anti-Democratic in nature. However, given the Palestinian polity and their maximalist political demands, particularly their support for Hamas, I am not sure of where that leaves things. I mean, it is hard to make peace with those that view a peace treaty as a mere step towards a "final solution" (and all that the use of that term implies). I am not fooling myself over anyone's intentions at this point That said, I don't believe that the status quo is sustainable.
So, the thing is "How do we get there?". Well the first thing we need is that both sides be willing to get there. I get poll results from Israel on a regular basis at www.knessetjeremy.com... All indicators are with the Israeli public or that has swung to the Right here (largely due to Hamas' attacks, individual stabbings and Abbas' pronouncements regarding J'slem). The Israeli public after years of being rejected are in no mood to compromise further (and I get this confirmed from my Israeli friends). AT the same time... Abbas has moved harder Right as Hamas has gained influence as a result of the Gaza Shootout this summer. So really neither side is willing to meet the other at least in a public forum (though funnily, there is far more security cooperation between the P.A. and the IDF, than between P.A. security forces and their "unity" partners Hamas.
So in short Mike, I am willing to continue the discussion in this case and see where it takes us.
You ask do I think you are "wrong". Honestly, in my opinion I disagree with you on this one completely. Are you "wrong"?... I don't know. I think so, but I am not the arbiter of "Right" and "Wrong" here. I think a better question might be to ask if I disagree and why.
I will say (and sorry for the long answer) that I do agree that there is certainly an unwillingness at the current time from the majority of Palestinians to settle this in a manner that makes sense for both sides. And I am growing less confident that the Israelis are very different here. Still.. the existence of Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people (something most every Zionist Israeli party with the exception of Meretz, who I do believe are Zionist, accepts) is of primary importance and in that there has to be a way to maintain that.
Long replies are good. The internets have plenty of pixels for everyone!
I'm not too far off from volley's position, I think. My thoughts are in the other thread, with some ruminating on how the terminology itself of "one state vs. two state" might be a bit of a stumbling block itself.
But I still do not understand how we can establish a negotiated two-state solution if the Arab side is opposed.
So in short Mike, I am willing to continue the discussion in this case and see where it takes us.
But that is the status quo.
We've been trying this for decades and they are having none of it. Begging for negotiations is not working, because Abbas and his people simply do not want a two-state solution.
They are all-or-nothing kind of guys and if they can't get it all - which they cannot - then you know what they get.
Well Mike... to be clear, when I say I am "willing to continue the discussion", I mean a discussion regarding One State v. Two State over the coming days (or week), I don't mean maintaining the status quo in the I/P conflict for years. ;-)
I have been an advocate for the two-state solution for many years, but I am entirely at a loss at how it can be accomplished without the cooperation of the other side(s).
I am happy to hear that you are grappling with alternatives.
What do I mean when I say a "different kind of unilateralism"? It means that I think there needs to be a new approach and I am wrestling with just what my opinion of that approach should be.
That's just where I was at.
But what I want to know is just how it is possible to have a negotiated two-state solution - with a state of Palestine living in peace next to the state of Israel - if the other sides refuse?
Nor will his successor be able to. Unless he wants to be killed. This is a slight cultural problem in Palestinian-Arab society, I think we'd all agree.
Arabs are killing Jews left and right in Israel so what do the bright lights at that antisemitic swamp dKos wanna talk about? The USS Liberty...oh, and how maybe Israel also did the USS Cole and 9/11 too. Gotta love those Democrats with right wing conspiracy theories.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/11/1343994/-It-took-a-while-but-now-we-know-for-certain-Israel-intentionally-attacked-and-killed-Americans
102 recs, only 17 HR's
Good to know that this is considered acceptable commentary there. But hey, they purged most of us troublesome Jooooz, so it's all good!
DeleteIn lighter news, Daily Kos user shmuelman won the internet today.
DeleteThose guys are hysterical.
ReplyDeleteOne guy is like, "Persecuted Jews? Where? When? What are you talking about?" which prompts David H to publish that long list of pogroms and expulsions.
And, gee, no one can figure out just why it is that Israel's neighbors want to see it destroyed.
These guys see racism under every rock in Europe and the United States, yet they cannot seem to find it anywhere in the entire Middle East with the lone, sole exception of Israel.
There seems to be a direct correlation at places like Daily Kos, wherein the less one knows about Jewish history, the more they seem to feel they're the experts with insight that everyone else needs to listen to.
DeleteThe ignorance is astonishing. I almost had to pick my jaw up off the floor after reading that one moron's comment asking when Jews have ever been persecuted in Europe...
Yep Jay... I feel the same way... The ignorance is astonishing. It's like their whole sources of information are Al-Jazeera,and al-Quds... There is absolutely no understanding of what Israel is or what it was created to be. It's mind boggling how uninformed and ridiculous the commentary is there.
DeleteIt's not just the hard core at Daily Kos. The ignorance is prevalent among most critics of Israel on the Left.
DeleteMelanie Philips had this to say about that:
Delete"Although Muslims have been prominent in aggressive demonstrations against Israel in the UK, the real problem lies with non-Muslim Brits. Knowing virtually nothing abut the Middle East or the history of the Jewish people, they have have fallen overwhelmingly for the falsehoods, distortions, selective reporting and Arab blood libels disseminated week in, week out by the British media. The malice of a disturbing number of MPs and the two-faced attitudes of the Foreign Office don't help either."
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/As-I-See-It-Channeling-incitement-through-Abbass-free-pass-381777
Informative comment here:
ReplyDelete"If you want to be a card-carrying member (15+ / 0-)
of the progressive movement, you have to be anti-Israel. There is no room for those who support a Jewish state.
Here, on DK, you have to be pro-Palestinian, even if that means making excuses for the extremist Islamist Hamas government and looking the other way when Palestinians drive their cars into Israeli bus stops and kill innocent Israelis. But when an Israeli commits a similar murder, you write a diary and bask in your status on the Rec List.
If you aren't down with this, then you ought to leave or stay the hell out of I-P diaries. Your opinion is not sought and not valued.
It's the Supreme Court, stupid!
by Radiowalla on Tue Nov 11, 2014 at 05:49:07 PM PST"
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1344184/54972341#c61
Yet they're not even 'pro-Palestinian,' or otherwise they'd be constantly whipping up outrage over Syria, the apartheid conditions Palestinian-Arabs face in every Arab nation, etc etc.
DeleteIt's clear that that those Daily Kos clowns are not 'pro-Palestinian' in any way whatsoever.
They just hate Jews.
VB,
ReplyDeleteyou are a brother whether you like it or not.
So, how can we implement the two-state solution without the cooperation of Arab and Muslim decision makers?
I have come out against it because there is no meaningful Arab or Muslim cooperation in any such scenario.
Am I wrong?
Mike - I think there are a number of steps that need to be tried and in the end if not successful then I believe unilateralism might be the only way (along the lines of a modified Alon / Olmert - Livni plan). I realize that, unilateralism did not work in Gaza so perhaps a "different" kind of unilateralism is needed. What do I mean when I say a "different kind of unilateralism"? It means that I think there needs to be a new approach and I am wrestling with just what my opinion of that approach should be.
DeleteNOTE: I say "should be" but only in the context of this as an intellectual exercise NOT what I would demand of the Israelis.
Anyway, I have been thinking about this a lot lately and where I certainly cannot subscribe to a One State Plan OR a plan like the Bennett Plan as both are anti-Democratic in nature. However, given the Palestinian polity and their maximalist political demands, particularly their support for Hamas, I am not sure of where that leaves things. I mean, it is hard to make peace with those that view a peace treaty as a mere step towards a "final solution" (and all that the use of that term implies). I am not fooling myself over anyone's intentions at this point That said, I don't believe that the status quo is sustainable.
So, the thing is "How do we get there?". Well the first thing we need is that both sides be willing to get there. I get poll results from Israel on a regular basis at www.knessetjeremy.com... All indicators are with the Israeli public or that has swung to the Right here (largely due to Hamas' attacks, individual stabbings and Abbas' pronouncements regarding J'slem). The Israeli public after years of being rejected are in no mood to compromise further (and I get this confirmed from my Israeli friends). AT the same time... Abbas has moved harder Right as Hamas has gained influence as a result of the Gaza Shootout this summer. So really neither side is willing to meet the other at least in a public forum (though funnily, there is far more security cooperation between the P.A. and the IDF, than between P.A. security forces and their "unity" partners Hamas.
So in short Mike, I am willing to continue the discussion in this case and see where it takes us.
You ask do I think you are "wrong". Honestly, in my opinion I disagree with you on this one completely. Are you "wrong"?... I don't know. I think so, but I am not the arbiter of "Right" and "Wrong" here. I think a better question might be to ask if I disagree and why.
I will say (and sorry for the long answer) that I do agree that there is certainly an unwillingness at the current time from the majority of Palestinians to settle this in a manner that makes sense for both sides. And I am growing less confident that the Israelis are very different here. Still.. the existence of Israel as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish people (something most every Zionist Israeli party with the exception of Meretz, who I do believe are Zionist, accepts) is of primary importance and in that there has to be a way to maintain that.
Long replies are good. The internets have plenty of pixels for everyone!
DeleteI'm not too far off from volley's position, I think. My thoughts are in the other thread, with some ruminating on how the terminology itself of "one state vs. two state" might be a bit of a stumbling block itself.
Fair enough, VB.
DeleteBut I still do not understand how we can establish a negotiated two-state solution if the Arab side is opposed.
So in short Mike, I am willing to continue the discussion in this case and see where it takes us.
But that is the status quo.
We've been trying this for decades and they are having none of it. Begging for negotiations is not working, because Abbas and his people simply do not want a two-state solution.
They are all-or-nothing kind of guys and if they can't get it all - which they cannot - then you know what they get.
Well Mike... to be clear, when I say I am "willing to continue the discussion", I mean a discussion regarding One State v. Two State over the coming days (or week), I don't mean maintaining the status quo in the I/P conflict for years. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI have been an advocate for the two-state solution for many years, but I am entirely at a loss at how it can be accomplished without the cooperation of the other side(s).
DeleteI am happy to hear that you are grappling with alternatives.
What do I mean when I say a "different kind of unilateralism"? It means that I think there needs to be a new approach and I am wrestling with just what my opinion of that approach should be.
That's just where I was at.
But what I want to know is just how it is possible to have a negotiated two-state solution - with a state of Palestine living in peace next to the state of Israel - if the other sides refuse?
Abbas can't do a deal. He'd be killed.
ReplyDeleteNor will his successor be able to. Unless he wants to be killed. This is a slight cultural problem in Palestinian-Arab society, I think we'd all agree.
DeleteCulture is key.
Delete