Think that BDS badge should be returned to the drawer.
Some of the people who participate may have those leanings, but I think many are just dupes who do not see the ramifications past their noses. They are not Nazis, more likely Stalinists, and this is not a way to get through.
I suspect there is always something positive that could be be utilized instead.
They are not Nazis in the sense that they are neither German National Socialists of the 1930s, nor are they contemporary neo-Nazis.
This, however, is entirely irrelevant.
What is the primary meaning of being a Nazi? Is it in the belief that the people and the government and the corporations are one? Fascism?
Nah. Not really.
Is it in the hyper nationalism of the movement?
Meh.
The true meaning of Nazism is in the irrational desire to cause genocidal harm to the Jewish people. That's what a Nazi is, really. Anyone who seeks harm to the Jews is, for all intents and purposes, what we might call a "Nazi."
I would not expect any professional historian to accept such a definition, but what we are doing here is not academic work.
We are thinking aloud as intelligent and caring human beings on an issue that is important to us.
The BDS movement seeks the delegitimization of the Jewish state in preparation for its eventual dissolution.
The BDS movement has a provenance that goes to Nazi Germany.
The BDS movement was inspired, and reflects, the Arab boycott of the Jewish state which, itself, was inspired by, and reflective of, the Nazi boycott of the Jews.
We need to understand these people for who they are and who they are are the contemporary equivalent of Nazis.
I think Nazis are actually sui generis. They used Jews as public enemy #1, for sure, but they believed that all inferiors were to be eliminated to help create their master race, Hitler's wet dream. Without him, German fascism may not have risen in such a virulent form.
Like I said, some in the BDS deserve the slogan, especially from the Arab leadership, as Arabs bought in to Hitler's ideas long ago. This fascist antisemitic element is all about power and subjugation, and has a much more top down character.
As to the leftists, they are more like Stalinists, diffused prisoners of a different ideology. Some may well hate Jews, but I sense that most are just pursuing a cause in knee jerk fashion. They are dupes and enablers of the fascist element. They can surely exhibit authoritarian behavior as they act out. However, in the end it's a game they are playing out of perceived guilt and misguided notions of justice. They are not just out of touch concerning BDS, either.
As an aside, I am certainly not afraid to mix it up with these people, but just think the in your face method in this case will not only not work, but fuel them.
It will also send the wrong message to lurkers, that you are just the opposite side of the coin. Let them destroy themselves with their extremism, as they seem to do increasingly, rather than playing at their level. It's about effective advocacy.
Anon, nice concern trolling but the badge is totally consistent with Karma's primary messages about BDS. Generally if they walk like ducks and quack like ducks.....or should that be walk like geese?
Do BDSers claim Jews/Israelis control other governments? You bet your ass; check out any BDS friendly site like dKos, Mondoweiss, Huffington, etc.
Has BDS engendered hate? You betcha; look around.
And if BDS can perpetuate the Israeli Apartheid canard as an operational premise then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, yes, they are Nazis. Fighting fire with fire is not "stooping," to their levels; it's levelling the playing field.
"it's a game they are playing out of perceived guilt and misguided notions of justice."
oldschool, I like your reasoning around this issue but many of these fools are not uninformed kiddies. And as such I agree with Karma that basically there is a need to hold their feet to the fire. It isn't going to change them but it does expose them and in some fights that's about as far as one will get.
And once again, I enjoy the points you make here. You always get my attention.
I hear you. But I think there are better and more effective ways. A badge with a swastika on an open thread does not affect them, but may affect those who visit the site.
It's not my decision, of course, but I wanted to offer this as a suggestion. I think it's better to create an overall environment of tolerance, especially in the face of intolerance.
I just looked at google images and there are lots of great logos that either show their extremism directly or are positive. Like BuyCott.
FWIW
ReplyDeleteThink that BDS badge should be returned to the drawer.
Some of the people who participate may have those leanings, but I think many are just dupes who do not see the ramifications past their noses. They are not Nazis, more likely Stalinists, and this is not a way to get through.
I suspect there is always something positive that could be be utilized instead.
I disagree, School.
ReplyDeleteThey are not Nazis in the sense that they are neither German National Socialists of the 1930s, nor are they contemporary neo-Nazis.
This, however, is entirely irrelevant.
What is the primary meaning of being a Nazi? Is it in the belief that the people and the government and the corporations are one? Fascism?
Nah. Not really.
Is it in the hyper nationalism of the movement?
Meh.
The true meaning of Nazism is in the irrational desire to cause genocidal harm to the Jewish people. That's what a Nazi is, really. Anyone who seeks harm to the Jews is, for all intents and purposes, what we might call a "Nazi."
I would not expect any professional historian to accept such a definition, but what we are doing here is not academic work.
We are thinking aloud as intelligent and caring human beings on an issue that is important to us.
The BDS movement seeks the delegitimization of the Jewish state in preparation for its eventual dissolution.
This can only mean lots and lots of dead Jews.
The badge stays.
Karmafish, you're not a an anti-Israel activist who's doing this blog as a false flag operation, are you?
ReplyDeleteBecause posting that stupid badge -- and thereby cheapening the memory of the Holocaust -- sure gives the impression that you are.
The BDS movement has a provenance that goes to Nazi Germany.
ReplyDeleteThe BDS movement was inspired, and reflects, the Arab boycott of the Jewish state which, itself, was inspired by, and reflective of, the Nazi boycott of the Jews.
We need to understand these people for who they are and who they are are the contemporary equivalent of Nazis.
You guys need to stop hiding under the bed.
It's always your choice.
ReplyDeleteI think Nazis are actually sui generis. They used Jews as public enemy #1, for sure, but they believed that all inferiors were to be eliminated to help create their master race, Hitler's wet dream. Without him, German fascism may not have risen in such a virulent form.
Like I said, some in the BDS deserve the slogan, especially from the Arab leadership, as Arabs bought in to Hitler's ideas long ago. This fascist antisemitic element is all about power and subjugation, and has a much more top down character.
As to the leftists, they are more like Stalinists, diffused prisoners of a different ideology. Some may well hate Jews, but I sense that most are just pursuing a cause in knee jerk fashion. They are dupes and enablers of the fascist element. They can surely exhibit authoritarian behavior as they act out. However, in the end it's a game they are playing out of perceived guilt and misguided notions of justice. They are not just out of touch concerning BDS, either.
Hope some of this makes sense.
As an aside, I am certainly not afraid to mix it up with these people, but just think the in your face method in this case will not only not work, but fuel them.
ReplyDeleteIt will also send the wrong message to lurkers, that you are just the opposite side of the coin. Let them destroy themselves with their extremism, as they seem to do increasingly, rather than playing at their level. It's about effective advocacy.
Anon, nice concern trolling but the badge is totally consistent with Karma's primary messages about BDS. Generally if they walk like ducks and quack like ducks.....or should that be walk like geese?
ReplyDeleteDo BDSers claim Jews/Israelis control other governments? You bet your ass; check out any BDS friendly site like dKos, Mondoweiss, Huffington, etc.
Has BDS engendered hate? You betcha; look around.
And if BDS can perpetuate the Israeli Apartheid canard as an operational premise then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, yes, they are Nazis. Fighting fire with fire is not "stooping," to their levels; it's levelling the playing field.
"it's a game they are playing out of perceived guilt and misguided notions of justice."
ReplyDeleteoldschool, I like your reasoning around this issue but many of these fools are not uninformed kiddies. And as such I agree with Karma that basically there is a need to hold their feet to the fire. It isn't going to change them but it does expose them and in some fights that's about as far as one will get.
And once again, I enjoy the points you make here. You always get my attention.
I hear you. But I think there are better and more effective ways. A badge with a swastika on an open thread does not affect them, but may affect those who visit the site.
ReplyDeleteIt's not my decision, of course, but I wanted to offer this as a suggestion. I think it's better to create an overall environment of tolerance, especially in the face of intolerance.
I just looked at google images and there are lots of great logos that either show their extremism directly or are positive. Like BuyCott.
Point taken.
ReplyDeleteOn that subject, this piece from today seems particularly relevant...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.divestthis.com/2011/09/emotion.html
Ya know, I saw that, Jay
ReplyDeleteI read Jon Haber (I think that's his name) regularly and I am willing to reconsider.