Tuesday, March 12, 2013

The Flaccidity of Progressive Zionist Push Back

Mike L.

One of the few remaining pro-Israel / pro-Jewish advocates on Daily Kos goes under the moniker JNEREBEL.  I remember her from back in the day and I certainly have nothing against her, but when I look at the terrible defamation toward the Jewish people that goes on at that venue on a regular basis and then when I look at the soft Jewish push-back, it gets me a tad nauseated.

JNEREBEL has an exceedingly lame "diary" up at Daily Kos entitled, UN says Palestinian rocket killed Gaza baby.  Here is the thing in its entirety:
The old saying goes that truth is an early casualty in war seems fitting based on the new UN report stating that the child killed in the first day of fighting last November was likely struck by a rocket fired from Gaza and not Israel.  
Omar al-Masharawi, an 11-month-old infant, was killed on Nov. 14, the first day of fighting. An Associated Press photograph showed Omar's anguished father, Jihad al-Masharawi, clutching his slain child wrapped in a shroud. Palestinians blamed Israel, and the image was broadcast around the world and widely shared on social media. Now a report from the U.N. office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights says the baby was "killed by what appeared to be a Palestinian rocket that fell short of Israel." Gaza's rulers, the militant Islamic group Hamas, whose fighters fired most of the rockets into Israel during the conflict, had no response Monday. 
The report cannot be 100% confirmed but based on "information gathered from eyewitnesses" the rocket was attributed to fire from Palestinian militants.   
Any civilian causality is a tremendous loss and this information will not help the family's ability to cope but it does show that the fog of war hinders accurate early reporting.
The main problem with "progressive Zionists," such as JNEREBEL, is that they are weak.

The truth, of course, is that much of the vast Arab-Muslim majority in the Middle East does whatever it can to demonize the tiny Jewish minority in order to stoke violence against them, just as they have done generation upon generation, century upon century.  What's new is that progressive-left venues, such as Daily Kos, now fan the flames of this theocratic hatred under the banner of "human rights."

Yet all JNEREBEL can say is that truth is an early casualty in war.

Yes, JNEREBEL, truth is, in fact, a casualty of war, but do you even recognize that you are in a war?

Do you honestly understand that the Jewish people of the Middle East are a people under perpetual siege by those who do not share your scruples or your morals or your inclination to be polite about it?

I don't think that for one moment that you do.

You are so needful for a pat on the head by non-Jewish western progressives who hold Israel in contempt that this is all you can muster in pushing against the lies and defamation of the Jewish people within your own movement?

It's a disgrace, is what I say.

The Jewish people of the Middle East are standing before an onslaught of hatred the likes that we have not seen since the early-middle twentieth-century in Europe and yet the most "progressive Zionists" can muster is something to the effect of, "Gee, we're not really that bad."

It's a losing proposition that no one will respect.  The progressives will not respect it because they will simply repeat the mantra of Jewish guilt, as Corvo does in the comments.  Non-progressive Jewish defenders of the state of Israel will not respect it because we see it for the milk-and-cookies that it is.

The problem, obviously, is that JNEREBEL finds herself torn between her desire to be liked by her progressive-left allies and her desire to defend her own people.  This is why her remarks in defense of the Jewish people and the Jewish State are flaccid.

What she doesn't understand is that the Jews in the Middle East are not the aggressors, but the victims, and they have been so for fourteen centuries.

Until western progressive Jews figure that out they will remain more or less worthless, if not detrimental, in the ongoing fight for Jewish sovereignty and freedom.

I have no particular desire to be harsh with JNEREBEL, but if we cannot find it within ourselves to stand up for ourselves then who will?



61 comments:

  1. It would have been nice to see some commentary about the BBC and others that engage in media bias, or groups like Human Rights Watch, that appear to have it in for Israel at the expense of truth.

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  2. I would say this poster definitely understands all of that, Mike, but the problem is the medium through which the message must be sent. The problem is what is expected of pro-Israel people who post at Daily Kos - that they must bring pillows to an antisemitic anti-Zionist gun fight. And even in that case, they aren't truly safe from being tossed out even if all they're doing is just deflecting a few bullets here and there.

    I'm trying not to click at that site anymore, but I can already imagine how the comments are going there, as I've certainly seen it often enough.

    Daily Kos has done as much as any other place over the past decade to mainstream antisemitism amongst the 'left,' and it's a place which doesn't deserve good people like JNEREBEL to lend it legitimacy anymore.

    IMO.

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    1. Fair enough, Jay.

      As I say, I have nothing against JNEREBEL, herself, and I think that you are right.

      The problem is what is expected of pro-Israel people who post at Daily Kos - that they must bring pillows to an antisemitic anti-Zionist gun fight.

      The problem is that however soft we get they will claim that we are actually fascists.

      I think that we need to ponder this notion of cognitive warfare.

      Cognitive warfare seeks to turn one’s own side into patriots eager for conquest and the targeted enemy into pacifists. At it’s finest, cognitive warfare is the art of getting the enemy to surrender without fighting.

      Interesting.

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    2. Yes, it's a good point Jay makes: Even the sincerest defender of Israel and Zionism finds out on sites like DKos that he or she is boxed within parameters that make it impossible to defend Israel and Zionism in any meaningful way. They either cave in and toe the line, or eventually do a GBCW or get banned (like our blog host).

      My own strategy of defending Zionism gives me a pretty decisive question on whether to participate in a forum. In the interest of restoring the original Israeli David vs Arab Goliath image that the whole world believed in back before the 1970s, I deny that the Arabs local to Palestine are a nation in its own right, with a history going back since Time Immemorial™. Following from this, any forum where such a stance is forbidden is one I can consider to be impossible to defend Israel in, and therefore I never register in the first place.

      However, in the course of the past decade or so, Progressive websites like DKos have made much less than that bannable: For instance, merely suggesting Ottoman-ruled Palestine in 1882 wasn't a teeming garden with a well-established non-Jewish nation, and on some forums, even just saying "Judea and Samaria" instead of "West Bank." The initial sinfulness (I don't use scare quotes, because Progressives do in all seriousness refer to the various Original Sins in the history of Israel and Zionism) of Jews returning to and setting up political sovereignty on the Land of Israel is assumed a priori; the only wiggle room for pro-Israel posters within the Progressive sphere is to seek out lightening circumstances, to beg for clemency, for those sins.

      And remember, it nearly never works on Israeli Jews: Except for the lunatic fraction behind +972, even avowed peaceniks among the Israeli Jews think Israel's "mistakes" started only in 1967, and could never stretch all the way back to 1948 or 1882 as the anti-Zionists abroad are so accustomed to thinking.

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    3. Zion, I have a question for you.

      You are an Israeli, yes?

      This is off-topic, but what I want to know is if Israelis are taught the long history of Jewish dhimmitude in the high schools?

      I do not know if you are native or if you made aliyah, but I want to know what the government is teaching those kids concerning the history of the Jews in the region.

      What do you think?

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    4. Yeah, Israeli, all my life in Israel except three in the U.S.

      I was taught that the Jews in the Islamic world were subject to ups and downs, and that they suffered under some discriminatory laws. The history wasn't whitewashed, though Jewish persecution under Christian rule was covered in much more detail; understandably, because of its preparation of the way to the Holocaust.

      Unfortunately that was long ago, and I'll eat my hat if political correctness hasn't crept up into the schools on that point. Since there's more than one education system for Jewish kids in Israel running in parallel, there's no definitive answer. The Religious-Zionist system keeps to the story, but in the Secular-Zionist system it may have been superseded; I don't know, because I don't keep tabs on what the Secular-Zionist education stream teaches, not having kids there.

      In the third stream, the Ultra-Orthodox, recent history isn't taught, though exemplary stories of rabbis under Islamic rule throughout the ages ought to make it clear the idyllic relationship portrayed by the Progressives is nothing but a myth. One Ultra-Orthodox tract given for free taking at the synagogue mentioned the Mawza Decrees inflicted on Yemenite Jewry in the 17th century; the mention was in passing, but enough to dispel the politically correct myths.

      In any case, many Israeli Jews still have living witnesses—their grandparents, even great-grandparents—of life under dhimmitude, as well as family stories of persecution going way back, long before Zionism could "sow discord between Arabs and Jews" as the Progressives believe it to have happened. The Sephardim have always been a staunch right-wing constituency, and that's one of the major reasons why.

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  3. Max Fisher of WaPo went so far as to adopt the Hillary Clinton defense "What does it matter WHO killed the baby?" Because when confronted by their own lies they revert to 'contextualizing' and adopting a false and silly philosophical voice where all of a sudden there are no killers only victims. I would hope at some point someone fires a rocket at Max Fisher's house because, we are lead to believe, it simply does not matter who did it or even whether it's different from a mudslide, arson, a tornado, a gas explosion or any other 'random' event. If reality 'does not matter' then so be it.

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    1. Listen here, you! I'm about already at my peak level of horror and disgust and you want to heighten it by pointing out the Hillary Clinton Defense?

      With all due respect, we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest? Or was it because of guys out for a walk one night and decided they would go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make?

      And to think that I once admired this person.

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  4. It has been confirmed officially that the rocket which killed the Gazan baby was indeed fired by the good guys from Hamas

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    1. So what else is new, Shirl? Mark Twain's quip about a lie having reached the other side of the world while the truth is just getting its shoes on has never been so relevant.

      And so it will stay until the Jewish State takes upon itself the duty of coercing the Islam-sympathizing worldwide media outlets to cease and desist from their cooperation with the anti-Zionist agenda. I expect it'll happen some time after Israel's supply of electricity to Gaza is shut down.

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    2. ziontruth,

      I think that "coercing" is not the right word.

      I think that rather, more correct phrases are: "informing them, and thereby persuading them to cease and desist their propagation of genocidal anti-Jewish libels" and "shaming them into being decent".

      Words matter. I think that people who are ignorant would wrongfully interpret your using the word "coercing" as referring to, and as being part of, the currently massively propagated and currently widely believed libelous false -- Nazi-propagated, and "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-propagated -- concept of "Evil Powerful Jewish Controllers of The World", "The Jewish Lobby", etc.

      Again:

      Anti-Semitism 2.0, by Mudar Zahran

      "The concept of the 'evil Jew' has made a well-disguised comeback: Criticizing Israel and Zionists, is now deemed a legitimate option to cursing Jews and Judaism. Not only is it open, socially acceptable and legal, but it can actually bring prosperity and popularity. This new form of anti-Semitism 2.0 is well-covered-up, harder to trace and poses a much deeper danger to the modern way of life of the civilized world than the earlier crude form of it, as it slowly and gradually works on delegitimizing Jews to the point where it eventually becomes acceptable to target Jews, first verbally, then physically -- all done in a cosmopolitan style where the anti-Semites are well-groomed speakers and headline writers in jackets and ties; and not just Arab, but American and European, from 'sanitized' news coverage of the most bloodthirsty radicals, to charges against Israel in which facts are distorted, selectively omitted or simply untrue, as in former President Jimmy Carter's book on Israel.

      "Why would a Palestinian* be writing this? The answer is simple: The Palestinians* have been used as fuel for the new form of anti-Semitism; this has hurt the Palestinians* and exposed them to unprecedented and purposely media-ignored abuse by Arab governments, including some of those who claim love for the Palestinians*, yet in fact only bear hatred to Jews. This has resulted in Palestinian* cries for justice, equality, freedom and even basic human rights being ignored while the world getting consumed with delegitimizing Israel from either ignorance or malice.

      "Worse, just as the old form of anti-Semitism has proven itself a threat as poisonous to its supporters, as it was to the Jews, the new form of anti-Semitism 2.0 could prove itself the same -- all the more likely as we see the world tolerating Iran's nuclear ambitions not necessarily out of love for the Mullah's regime, but instead because of mental fixation against Israel. ..."

      http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1979/anti-semitism-20

      ----

      From a talk by Khaled Abu Toameh:

      "...When I tried, in '95 and '96 and '97 to alert many of my foreign colleagues to the fact that Arafat was stealing the money, back then, in the financial corruption, and that the Palestinians* are complaining about this, many of my American, Canadian, European, colleagues, asked me back then if I were on the payroll of 'The Jewish Lobby'. They asked me: 'Did Jews pay you money to say that Arafat is corrupt and bad?'.' ..."

      (continued)

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    3. Johann von Leers and Walt/Mearsheimer, by Clemens Heni

      http://clemensheni.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/johann-von-leers-and-waltmearsheimer/

      "Most people think that the book 'Israel Lobby' by Stephen Walt and John J. Mearsheimer was published in 2007 -- at the same time in the US and in Germany, by the way. Well, the first edition of that book was rather published in 1940 -- by leading National Socialist anti-Semitic publicist Prof. Dr. Johann von Leers. Von Leers published 'Kräfte hinter Roosevelt' ('Forces behind Roosevelt') in Berlin in 1940. ..."

      ----

      Antisemitism in America - Yale Kills YIISA, by Clemens Heni

      "...Contrary to fantasies about a powerful ‘Israel-Lobby’ in the US, antisemitism is very strong among the elites in America. The recent Yale decision is proof for this. ..."

      http://clemensheni.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/yale-kills-yiisa/

      ----

      Big Oil Underwrites Anti-Israel Conference, by Cliff Kincaid
      http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/big-oil-underwrites-anti-israel-conference

      ----

      The Arab Lobby, by Lee Smith
      http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/44096/the-arab-lobby/

      "...Mitchell Bard's [book] describes how this Arab lobby — from U.S. foreign service officers, oil companies, Christian anti-Zionists, and Ivy League universities to Gulf Arab states, Arab-American activists and Islamist ideologues — exercises its influence in U.S. politics. ..."

      ----

      Note: * "Palestinian" / "Palestinians": 'Palestinian' Arab / 'Palestinian' Arabs

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    4. Daniel Bielak,

      "I think that 'coercing' is not the right word."

      I think it's exactly the right word, and its choice isn't a shot from the hip: A clear view of the situation persuades me that nothing less will be enough. Why? Here's why. You say we should go about:

      "informing them, and thereby persuading them to cease and desist their propagation of genocidal anti-Jewish libels ... shaming them into being decent"

      That's the route already taken, already tried, and found to fail. That's the line of action brought about by the erroneous thought that we're dealing with decent people, merely misled reporters who can be corrected just by pointing out where they're wrong, or at worst, shaming them.

      Wrong. Totally wrong.

      The worldwide media, and that includes even the Israeli media, is largely owned and staffed by hard-Left activists. People with anti-Zionist and pro-Phakestinian leanings. Let me put it in stark terms: Israel is under a worldwide Mainstream Media blockade, by virtue of the fact that the gatekeepers of information today are its enemies.

      They don't think they're spreading lies. Nor will they stop their anti-Zionist activities out of shame, for, on the contrary, they regard protests on the part of pro-Israel persons to be a sign of being on the right track. The best you could ever get from them is a correction in microscopic font size on the back pages of the newspaper.

      They won't stray off their current course willingly. Only threats—legally the right of the Jewish State, though not of individuals—will make them stop. This I know, because websites shedding light on their shenanigans have been active for years yet the situation hasn't changed. Naming and shaming doesn't work.

      (contd.)

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    5. (contd.)

      You also say:

      "I think that people who are ignorant would wrongfully interpret your using the word 'coercing' as referring to ... concept of 'Evil Powerful Jewish Controllers of The World', 'The Jewish Lobby', etc."

      Let me shock you with my thoughts even more.

      Way back, I was one of those who tried refuting those libels by showing how the pro-Israel side barely makes a dent in policymaking and Israel's image abroad. As the years passed, I found myself more and more thinking, if only privately, "I wish we were that powerful." Today, this change has fully been realized into two unifying ideas:

      1) A lot of the things our enemies attribute to us are things we must actually be in order to survive. (Such as "all-powerful controllers of the media." Oh, how I wish, how I wish!)
      2) If you're doing the time, we might as well commit the crime. (Act like there's nothing to lose, IOW. What are they going to do, call you a "Zionazi"? They've already wasted that ammo.)

      We are the butt of unfair accusations. We've always been, but now that we have a state of our own, we'd better make those accusations worthwhile. "All-powerful Jewish lobby," say the anti-Zionists? It's not true, but OK, you know what, that's quite a good idea you've come up with, anti-Zionists, so we'll see to delivering it in spades. And what will they say then? Their accusations will have been already worn out from overuse. They'll have lost their sting, and we'll have reaped the real-world benefits of turning the worldwide media to serve our interests.

      Yes, I know, those reading those last words will seize on it as "proof." But they don't need it; they'd believe in the Protocols libel anyway. So, again, we have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" attitude.

      Who is in a war must do as in a war. Just "informing" and "persuading" the enemy media won't cut it, no more than asking them "Pretty please with sugar on top" to quit their anti-Zionist activities. They're the enemy, and you don't get an enemy to stop fighting you by asking nicely.

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    6. "That's the route already taken, already tried"

      That is absolutely incorrect.

      The route that's already been taken, already tried, is telling incomplete irrelevant facts. The route that's already been taken, already tried, is being mealy-mouthed milquetoasts. The route that's already been taken, already tried, is blathering "niceties" and incomplete irrelevant facts.

      SHAME THEM -- THE WESTERN RACIST ANTI-JEWISH MASS-MEDIA -- IN FRONT OF EVERYONE ELSE -- by telling essential facts -- FIRMLY -- including facts about them -- facts about their lies -- but mainly crucial essential facts of the history of current reality of the situation.

      ziontruth, I'm completely with you. I know exactly what and who the members or the Western mass-media are. I've been enraged, for years, by their propagation of genocide-inciting libels against Israel. And I've been enraged, for years, by the worse than ineffectual way that the government of Israel has been responding to the propagation of those libels.

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    7. Correction:

      "members of the Western mass-media"

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    8. "SHAME THEM -- THE WESTERN RACIST ANTI-JEWISH MASS-MEDIA -- IN FRONT OF EVERYONE ELSE..."

      What if that "everyone else" is people like them, or at the very least, people who share their antipathy to Israel? The reason I think shaming won't work is that anti-Zionism isn't considered as being beyond the pale—and if you're a Muslim, even outright classical Jew-hatred gets nods of sympathy ("Because of the occupation...") from the bon-ton crowd.

      "...by telling essential facts -- FIRMLY -- including facts about them -- facts about their lies -- but mainly crucial essential facts of the history of current reality of the situation."

      Agreed, we must tell the facts. But—and that's the billion-dollar question—how do we get them past those hostile gatekeepers of information? You see, I'm not calling for coercing for the sake of some sadistic pleasure or even revenge; my point is I think coercion applied to the worldwide media outlets by the Jewish State is the only way they're going to let the truth get by their gates.

      Thanks for taking my posts so well, Daniel. Though they were directed at ideas and nothing personal, I admit I was really being confrontational in my style. Pushy to a fault, I'd say, though I couldn't think of any other way of conveying my thoughts.

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    9. Here's a question:

      Just how can Israel coerce the enemedia into behaving fairly?

      What powers of coercion does Israel possess in order to force a compliance to human decency?

      {I wonder to myself aloud.}

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    10. "Just how can Israel coerce the enemedia into behaving fairly?"

      Two methods I can think of:

      1) Revocation of reporters' rights to activity in both pre-1967 Israel and the ACJTs.
      2) The threat of having to expend money on renovation of their offices. (Again, this is illegal for individuals, so don't anybody get any ideas; it's for the Jewish State only, in its capacity as a nation-state, giving it a monopoly on such actions. Needless to say, officials from the Jewish State will give "cease and desist" warnings beforehand.)

      The media misfits are cowards; that's why they do far more "reportage" on Israel than on Syria, let alone North Korea. So far, they've abused the freedom Israel has granted them, so they need to toe the line by appealing to their natural state of cowardice. Those two methods won't have to be applied very often before their fruits are borne.

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    11. It can't. The media is too far gone.

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    12. ziontruth,

      Thank you for your kind comment to me.

      And don't worry about your "pushiness". It's a relief to me that there are some Jewish people who are as outraged by the mass-propagation of genocidal anti-Jewish anti-Israeli libels by the Western mass-media (and by Western governments), as I am, and who take such evil seriously and who take lethal danger to their own people seriously. I'm relieved that at least some Jewish people have the normal human passion to be outraged by such evil and to want to dispel such evil.

      However, I realize that in order to stop experiencing suffering, and to not cause oneself or others to suffer, one must be mindful -- and one must discern what, in fact, is the case, and one must discern what is not beneficial to do, and one must discern what is beneficial to do -- and one must not do what is harmful, and one must do what is beneficial.

      ----

      Most people, or, rather, most Americans, are not malicious ideologically anti-Jewish bigots. And it's Americans who must be informed of the situation. It's Americans -- ordinary American people -- the American people -- who have the power to change the situation -- who have the power to stop the Western racist anti-Jewish war on Israel.

      Jewish people, in fact, have power. It's just that they don't use it -- they don't use it to protect themselves. Jewish people have the ability to protect themselves. Israel is a nation -- a technologically, economically, powerful nation. The leaders of the government of Israel are leaders of a nation. The leaders of the government of Israel are world leaders. They can have a platform if they make one for themselves. They can, and need to, hold press conferences in which they tell the crucial essential facts of the history and current reality of the situation. They can, and need to do so in the United Nations. And, importantly, they can, and need to, do so in speeches in the U.S. congress.

      And people are people. Individual people are individual people. Western media reporters are just people. Jewish Israeli government officials, and also other influential Israeli Jewish people, need to just talk to Western media reporters individually as their being individuals. Establish a rapport -- a friendly rapport. Inform them. About Israel -- about Israeli culture -- Jewish culture -- liberal democratic, open, free, culturally rich, culturally diverse, beneficent, beneficial Israeli Jewish culture -- just by showing them around and being friendly with them. And inform them of the essential facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in. And Jewish Israeli government officials, and also other influential Israeli Jewish people, can, and need to, do that also with U.S. government officials and with other Western governmental officials. But, always, be firm, and tell the facts of the situation, and never waiver. Jewish Israeli government officials, and also other Jewish people, just need to have a backbone and be wise.

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    13. And, yes, with appropriate proper actions, punish, and prevent, criminal activity against Israel done by Western reporters and others.

      But always communicate -- always communicate wisely -- about your own actions and about others' actions and about the situation that you are in. Explain. Inform. Completely. Comprehensively.

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    14. Explain. Inform. Completely. Comprehensively. Clearly.

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    15. Daniel,

      It seems we're hitting on two sides of the same coin: Yours is that we need to send a clear message, mine is that we need to ensure that message gets through. I fully agree we need to form our message properly—in fact, that's the reason why I'm so adamant about terminology (like using the term "colonists" for the local Arabs, and the like). The importance of bringing the media to heel can't be denied, though, because the best message in the world is no good unless it gets through.

      We need to get the message out that Israel is the realization of an ancient nation's right to self-determination (rhyming not intentional... just got out that way), threatened by the imperialist aggression of a nation (Arab) or religio-political movement (Islamic imperialism) that is in no way short of territory and wishes to steal the little that rightfully belongs to the Jewish nation. That's the message.

      And, since the worldwide MSM outlets are by and large predisposed to the enemy side of the war—in other words, they support Arab/Islamic imperialism and the anti-Zionist lies—the only way to get that message through is by forcing them to publish it instead of their anti-Zionist lies. Only in that way can our message have its desired effect, of propagating to readers worldwide and hopefully undoing the damage of decades-long subtle anti-Zionist brainwashing.

      That's about the message and bringing it forth. However, I disagree we should make an appeal to Americans, let alone to the United Nations. A post-Holocaust Jew no longer trusts in the goodwill of any non-Jewish nation for its security. If we want to stop the anti-Jewish war against Israel, we have to make it stop ourselves; just like with Iran, we can only tell the Americans not to obstruct our efforts, we can't ask the Americans to do our work for us. This isn't even a Jewish thing: I believe it's for each nation to take care of its own problems by itself.

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    16. ziontruth,

      You wrote:

      "...However, I disagree we should make an appeal to Americans, let alone to the United Nations. A post-Holocaust Jew no longer trusts in the goodwill of any non-Jewish nation for its security. ..."

      The holding of this view is one of the big problems that Israel has.

      What needs to be done is not about "trusting in the goodwill of any non-Jewish nation for its security".

      No nation exists in a vacuum. Every nation exists in the world -- with every other nation. It's how the dynamics of the situation between nations are that determine the situation of any nation.

      It is precisely the attitude of thinking "we can't trust in the goodwill of any non-Jewish nation for our security, and, therefore, there's no point in trying to communicate to non-Jewish nations about the situation that we're in, and about our actions, and about their actions, and about others' actions" that is a large factor of why Israel is in the situation that it's in.

      What needs to be done is not about "trusting in the goodwill of any non-Jewish nation for its security".

      What needs to be done is about changing the dynamics of the situation. It's about changing the situation. It's about making the situation better. It's about doing what will protect Israel. And, by the way, doing what will protect Israel will protect the whole world.

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    17. Daniel,

      "No nation exists in a vacuum."

      It's a leap from saying this to saying we need to entrust our security to other nations.

      I have vigorously called for telling the truth about us to the world. In fact, I'm even more vigorous than most, in that I say we should ram that truth down everybody's throats by coercing the worldwide media to work for us.

      And I also agree Israel needs weaponry for its self-defense. What I don't agree with is the view that Israel should form alliances with other nation-states, including the United States of America. Alliances tend to fail, even when there's plenty of goodwill and sincerity. The American Revolution was nearly put down by the British because the French were delayed in sending their fleet—the King of France had been absolutely sincere in his pledge, but problems at home got him stalled. We need to get weapons in plain dealing (they sell, we buy, nothing beyond that) and put them to use by ourselves.

      We have to get ready for the possible situation that nearly the entire world could be against us. It would be so not because of any inaction on our part, but because that's what the world wants. And it isn't the end of the world, or even the end of the Jews and their state. That's crucial. A lot of people treat an international pop star's decision to boycott Israel like the sky was falling, and the converse, of a pop star gracing Israel's shores, like the rebuilding of the Temple. This is unhealthy, to say the least. Where's that sense of self-reliance that used to be so contrasted with life in the shtetl? At least the shtetl Jews had an excuse; Zionists exhibiting that mentality are clear cases of Jews yet to get the shtetl out of themselves.

      I prefer to be optimistic: We can and should use any power at our disposal to turn the tide of opinion back for us, but even if none of the steps taken works, we'll manage. Think of it like Chesty's quip: "We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem." Either we see results or being cornered will force us, finally, to fight like we have nothing to lose. I like quoting Captain Mifune on that: "If it's our time to die then it's our time. But, if we have to give those b**tards our lives, I say WE GIVE 'EM HELL BEFORE WE DO!" And unlike the Matrix Zionists we can take our enemies down, completely, even on their own homelands; all it takes is full belief in ourselves, and zero belief in being beholden to anybody else.

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    18. ziontruth,

      If a nation is hated by the rest of the world it will be destroyed. Period. That's just the way things are[1]. That's just the way the world works. That's just the way it is. And there are reasons[2] that Israel is hated by so much of the world -- by no evil wrongdoing by Israel itself. And if the same actions keep continuing to be done (by the leaders of the government of Israel), the whole rest of the world will eventually hate Israel. And there are actions that can be done (by the leaders of the government of Israel) that will prevent Israel from being hated by the rest of the world and which will stop Israel from being hated by people and nations whose lack of hating Israel will protect Israel.

      Notes:

      1. And the Nazis knew that, and all other malicious anti-Jewish bigots know that -- hence their huge propagation of intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish libels

      2. The massive campaigns of intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish libels

      Delete
    19. All of this -- what are the actions of malicious anti-Jewish bigots, and what are the actions of libeled violently attacked endangered Jewish people trying to survive -- has been the case for three thousand years. Hence the situation that Jewish people have been in continuously for the past three thousand years.

      Jewish people can change that -- by doing what will change that. Verbally defending themselves against libels. And, therein, standing on their own two feet.

      Delete
    20. Effectively verbally defending themselves against libels. And, therein, standing on their own two feet.

      Delete
    21. "If a nation is hated by the rest of the world it will be destroyed."

      Going by this, the Jewish nation should have stopped existing 3000 years ago.

      "That's just the way the world works. That's just the way it is."

      Jews over the ages have always believed that the Jewish nation is exceptional; the hatred toward it is exceptional, and so is its survival against all odds. While this belief has been greatly strained by the Holocaust, it's still held by all Orthodox Jews.

      There are only three options as far as I'm concerned:

      1) We manage, all by ourselves without enlisting the help of any other nation, to repulse all the threats to our existence.
      2) We're cornered by enemies massed against us, and this time HaShem exposes the arm of His holiness and shows the world that in Him alone is salvation.
      3) We're cornered by enemies massed against us, we don't manage to repulse them, no divine intervention saves us, and so the Jewish nation leaves the world, but not before taking most or all of the same world with it (the Samson Option).

      Maybe the sheep can get weapons and fight well enough to drive off seventy wolves attacking her; or maybe the shepherd will save her at the last moment; or failing those options, the wolves will discover that the sheep has a poison capsule inside her that guarantees a quick death to any that eats her.

      I wish most for the second option; the first option would be good, although it would mean there's still some wait before the end game; I fervently hope things won't come to the third option, but if the other two fail, then that'll be it. There is no fourth option—having the tide turned with the help of some Daddy Nation we'd appealed to is not on the list. In our dire straits, America won't be there to help; in fact, it'll be the better scenario if America just stands aloof, rather than being numbered among the enemies amassed against the Jews and their state.

      Delete
    22. ziontruth,

      You wrote,

      "Going by this, the Jewish nation should have stopped existing 3000 years ago."

      The Jewish people have been mass-murdered repeatedly throughout the past three thousand years. The country of the Jewish people has been destroyed twice throughout the past three thousand years. The Jewish people have been without a country for the past two thousand years. The Jewish people have been persecuted and libeled and hated and treated with contempt and intransigence for the past two thousand years.

      I don't consider that fortunate.

      And, yes, because of certain principals of Jewish culture -- including very beneficial principals -- the Jewish people still exist as a community and have existed as a community for the past three thousand years. However that doesn't eliminate or diminish the suffering that Jewish people have experienced.

      And what's important is to not suffer.

      And there is no big daddy who will protect the Jewish people. No big daddy in the sky and no big daddy in the world.

      Jewish people have to protect themselves, just like all other peoples have to protect themselves. And what Jewish people have to do to protect themselves is to tell the truth -- the facts of the situation that Israel is in -- the truth which will dispel the lies that are causing Israel to be in the situation that Israel is in.

      And the U.S. government -- the State Department, the upper echelons of the CIA, the current U.S. executive administration and previous U.S. executive administrations -- is not even just standing aloof, and has never been even just standing aloof, but, rather, is hostile and malicious toward Israel and always has been hostile and malicious toward Israel. And now, at this stage, for the U.S. government to even just stand aloof, the leaders of the government of Israel need to tell the American people -- and the Jewish people in Israel -- the truth -- the facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in.

      Delete
    23. The Secret War Against the Jews, by John Loftus[1] and Mark Aarons

      "The authors demonstrate that numerous Western countries, especially the United States and Great Britain, have conducted repeated and willful spying missions on Palestine[2] and later Israel over many decades. While on the surface these two countries and others profess to be ardent allies of Israel, they work, in fact, through their intelligence services to betray Israel's secrets to the Arabs. Their motive: oil and multinational profits, which must be attained at any price through international covert policies. To understand the duplicitous nature of the West's diplomatic relations with Israel, the authors contend that one must understand the history that begins after the end of World War I with the sordid Mideast exploits of a British diplomat, Jack Philby. They then proceed into a detailed discussion of the boardrooms of American and English bankers and lawyers who had strong connections with Nazi leaders and Arab oil tycoons in the 1930s prior to the outbreak of World War II. Particularly intriguing is the information that the writers present to suggest an all-too-cozy financial relationship that existed between the Allied intelligence community and German banks even during the war. ..."

      http://books.google.com/books/about/The_secret_war_against_the_Jews.html?id=trU7nY-T-4EC

      ----

      America's Nazi Secret: An Insider's History, by John Loftus

      "Fully revised and expanded, this stirring account reveals how the U.S. government permitted the illegal entry of Nazis into North America in the years following World War II. This extraordinary investigation exposes the secret section of the State Department that began, starting in 1948 and unbeknownst to Congress and the public until recently, to hire members of the puppet wartime government of Byelorussia—a region of the Soviet Union occupied by Nazi Germany. A former Justice Department investigator uncovered this stunning story in the files of several government agencies, and it is now available with a chapter previously banned from release by authorities and a foreword and afterword with recently declassified materials. ..."

      http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Nazi-Secret-Insiders-History/dp/1936296047

      ----

      Big Oil Underwrites Anti-Israel Conference, by Cliff Kincaid
      http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/big-oil-underwrites-anti-israel-conference

      ----

      The Arab Lobby, by Lee Smith

      "...Mitchell Bard's [book] describes how this Arab lobby — from U.S. foreign service officers, oil companies, Christian anti-Zionists, and Ivy League universities to Gulf Arab states, Arab-American activists and Islamist ideologues — exercises its influence in U.S. politics. ..."

      ----

      Is the US an ally of Israel? - A chronological look at the evidence, by Francisco Gil-White[3]
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally.htm

      Notes:

      1. John Loftus is a former prosecutor with the U.S. Justice Department and had above Top Secret security clearance in the U.S. government.

      2. "Palestine": British Mandate of Palestine

      3. I've written my understanding of Francisco Gil-White in another comment that I've previously posted here on Israel Thrives.

      Delete
  5. Well, I see that you guys are having a pleasant conversation about nothing less than the very life and death of the Jewish people... and other such lighthearted matters.

    :O)

    Oh, man, you guys slay me, but I have to say that this is very, very interesting dialogue.

    Lots of interesting ideas being expressed.

    I don't care what anyone says, I would put the level of our discussion up against what you could possibly find in any other pro-Israel venue.

    {Carry on.}

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "the very life and death of the Jewish people... and other such lighthearted matters."

      I wish I'd never arrived at this topic, it's a depressing one.

      It might not look like it, but I actually envy Daniel. He believes we can turn the tide through well-aimed persuasion; I tend to call for urgent, stressful kinds of action, and never with the absolute belief that, if applied, they would surely succeed.

      Let's leave all options open, I say. Keep the belief alive that, as Daniel says, persuasion can gain us allies. But, at the same time, prepare for the less desirable scenarios. We could employ a series of fallbacks.

      Delete
    2. I say put an end to Hamas and then tell the world... in no uncertain terms... that the Jewish people are not going to allow themselves to be threatened with genocide ever again.

      So, I suspect, Zion, that we are mainly in agreement.

      Delete
    3. "So, I suspect, Zion, that we are mainly in agreement."

      Yes, ziontruth, I, too, think that, as Mike wrote, we are mainly in agreement.

      And, ziontruth, I don't mean to be harsh. And I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

      Best wishes, my friend.

      And, by the way, and again: the following teachings are the existential view that I hold and the existential and moral path of practice that I strive to follow. I hope that the listing of the following teachings may be beneficial.

      "...Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

      "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

      "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

      "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. ..."

      -- The Buddha, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

      "Conquer anger with
      lack of anger;
      bad, with good;
      stinginess, with a gift;
      a liar, with truth."

      -- The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 17, Verse 223

      "The non-doing of any evil,
      the performance of what's skillful,
      the cleansing of one's own mind:
      this is the teaching
      of the Awakened."

      -- The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 14, Verse 183


      Access to Insight - Readings in Theravada Buddhism
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org

      Delete
    4. Dan, do you prefer the Theravada tradition to the Mahayana?

      There have been times in my life when I have found myself attracted to Buddhism, but generally of the Mahayana variety, i.e., Zen.

      The thing about Zen is that it contains absolutely nothing that offends my intelligence.

      They do not require you to believe any nonsense, whatsoever.

      All they want you to do is sit the hell down and shut the f**k up.

      And that I can sometimes accomplish.

      {Hard to imagine, I know.}

      Delete
    5. Mike, I was into Zen for a while. One of the first introductions into Buddhism that I had was a book of Zen koans. And I was into Tibetan Buddhism for a while. But, even all of that time, I knew about Theravada Buddhism, and I knew about, in general, the teachings of Theravada Buddhism, and I understood, according to my understanding, that the teachings of Theravada Buddhism were the right teachings. But I didn't get around to actually start getting into reading the teachings of Theravada Buddhism until later.

      And the thing about the teachings of the Buddha as they are recorded in the Tipitaka -- oldest surviving recordings of the teachings of the Buddha -- the teachings that are adhered to by Theravada Buddhism -- is that one can just put certain aside things that one thinks is unlikely to be true -- and maybe come back to them later.

      The Buddha expressed that one should not believe anything just because it's been said by others nor just because it's believed by others.

      And,

      The Buddha expressed that one should not follow his teachings just because he said it. He said that one should discern for oneself what is true according to one's own direct observation and experience, and that one should discern the truth of his teachings by one's own direct observation and experience.

      Delete
    6. Typo correction:

      ...the oldest surviving recordings of the teachings of the Buddha...

      Delete
    7. Another typo correction:

      ...one can just put aside certain things that one thinks is unlikely to be true...

      Delete
    8. Another correction:

      ...I think that one can just put aside certain things that one thinks are unlikely to be true -- and maybe come back to them later...

      ---

      And:

      "...Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them. ..."

      -- The Buddha, Kalama Sutta

      "...Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

      "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.' ..."

      -- The Buddha, Gotami Sutta

      Delete
    9. Y'know, it's funny, Dan, but just reading a little Buddhist primary text, as you published above, lowers my heart rate.

      I have to say, I love the Jewish people and I strongly identify with the cause of Jewish self-determination and self-defense... obviously... but I also have a strong respect for the religious traditions native to India.

      I will be holding a Passover Seder within a few weeks, because I respect the Jewish tradition... because I am a Jew.

      I somehow feel both secular and religious simultaneously.

      I wonder who can relate to that sensibility?



      Delete
  6. By the way, how did we ever get to the point where we have an American president that encourages fascism right next door to Israel and we have all these American Jews who think it's just dandy?

    If I recall my American History, and I think that I do, there was a time when American presidents actually opposed fascism.

    Ahh, the good ol' days.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Daniel Bielak,

      "And what's important is to not suffer."

      Buddhism won't win the Jews their war. You're playing the wrong symphony, Daniel.

      "No big daddy in the sky..."

      Well, He's not a bearded human being sitting on the vaulted roof above the earth, if that's what you mean. But if you mean to say the creation is without a Supreme Ruler behind all of history, then the Jewish nation's existence is senseless and we might as well pack our bags and go the way of the Babylonians and the Romans. I believe in the Exodus from Egypt, which I will be celebrating in two weeks' time. This is how the Jewish nation was born, and if that never happened then we're just fish drifting in the sea that should be put out of their misery. No, the Jewish nation is there for what the Torah says it's for: Serving as HaShem's priests.

      "And, ziontruth, I don't mean to be harsh. And I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings."

      That's OK, I've taken nothing personally. It just saddens me, on a level that's beyond the personal, that so many Jews today are wandering in strange fields. I've striven to be accepting of other people's chosen paths, but there are things an Orthodox Jew just can't gloss over.

      Mike,

      "I say put an end to Hamas and then tell the world... in no uncertain terms... that the Jewish people are not going to allow themselves to be threatened with genocide ever again."

      It would usually work, but not with the enemies Israel has. The trouble with them is they don't mind dying—becoming a shaheed (martyr) is the highest honor as far as they're concerned. Both leaders and common people among the Muslims won't be deterred by the fear of going down. The Samson Option isn't about Mutually Assured Destruction as it was with the Soviets—evil but wanting to keep themselves alive. It's only for ensuring that a second Holocaust wouldn't go unavenged, which is why it's the very last resort, the final parting shot fired once it's clear all hope is lost.

      Alright, let's stop all this gloomy stuff and even worse bickering. I'm clearing the ether for a while, don't know how long.

      Delete
    2. ziontruth,

      Well, I appreciate your lack of malice and your kindheartedness and your tolerance.

      And, I'm not an adherent of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people -- Judaism -- but I'm Jewish. And I appreciate the beneficial moral principals that are part of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people and which are part of Jewish culture.

      I'm not an adherent of Judaism -- just like someone who's Japanese who isn't an adherent of Shintoism isn't an adherent of Shintoism. But I'm Jewish -- just like someone who is Japanese is Japanese.

      But, in any case,

      Best wishes,

      and,

      Peace.

      Dan

      Delete
    3. But the concept of "I", "me", "identity", is neither here nor there and is not beneficial to cling to. What's good is just to not do any evil and to perform what's skillful and to cleanse one's own mind. I'm sorry for posting so many comments. I'll try to not do any evil and to perform what's skillful and to cleanse my own mind.

      Peace.

      Delete
    4. Zion,

      let me know if you think the following statement is true or false.

      Were it not for the EU and the US, Israel could eliminate Hamas as a functioning organization.

      I feel reasonably certain that the answer to that question is "true."

      Am I wrong?

      Delete
    5. Daniel,

      I'm not casting any doubts about your being Jewish. In fact, it's because I believe you're a Jew that I'm so dismayed at your rejection of those ancestral beliefs that Jews over the ages have always held, and have only in the last few centuries come to doubt.

      I realize I'm skirting the limits of permissibility for a guest, but I have to tell you that it is the conviction held by all Orthodox Jews that the observance of the Jewish religion is obligatory for all Jews. Because it would be impertinent for me to say more in that vein, I'll just say I can keep silent but I can't accept it inside my heart that there are Jews who adhere to Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, atheism or any religion other than Judaism. I'm not one of those who shout "Shabbes!" at passing cars during Shabbat, but on the other hand it would be a lie for me to say I'm not disturbed by the passing of those cars.

      Mike,

      "Were it not for the EU and the US, Israel could eliminate Hamas as a functioning organization."

      I'd say partially right. I'd combine those two external factors with the problem of our leadership that sets too much store by what they think. Our leaders' fear gives the E.U. and the U.S. most of the power they have over Israel (especially the E.U., which unlike the U.S. has no real trump card to hold over Israel).

      Delete
    6. ziontruth,

      Thank you for your kind reply to me.

      I know that you're not casting any doubts about my being Jewish.

      And whether or not anyone would cast any doubts about my being Jewish wouldn't matter. Just as whether or not anyone would cast any doubts about the fact that the color of my eyes is the color of my eyes wouldn't matter.

      And I'm not rejecting any ancestral beliefs out of spite nor out of any other emotional aversion. I simply don't adhere to views which I understand are wrong.

      And Buddhism is not Islam nor Christianity. And Buddhism is not any other ideology.

      And what others believe is not really important to oneself. It's the views that oneself holds, and the speech that oneself says, and the actions that oneself does, that are important to oneself. And I often am not mindful, and, therefore, during those times when I am not mindful, I don't remember that fact, and I am not aware of that fact, and I am not heedful of that fact. But sometimes I am mindful, and, during those times when I am mindful, I do remember that fact, and I am aware of that fact, and I am heedful of that fact. :)

      May you be well and happy, my friend.

      Peace.

      Dan

      P.S.

      And I agree completely with what you wrote about the fear that is held by the leaders of the government of Israel. That fear is preventing, and has prevented, the leaders of the government of Israel from telling the truth about the situation that Israel is in and from thereby, and therein, protecting Israel -- their own nation.

      Delete
    7. Just to clarify:

      What others believe does not really affect oneself. It's the views that oneself holds, and the speech that oneself says, and the actions that oneself does, that affect oneself. And I often am not mindful, and, therefore, during those times when I am not mindful, I don't remember that fact, and I am not aware of that fact, and I am not heedful of that fact. But sometimes I am mindful, and, during those times when I am mindful, I do remember that fact, and I am aware of that fact, and I am heedful of that fact.

      Delete
    8. We get what you're saying a lot more often than you give us credit for, Dan. Don't worry about it so much, friend!

      Delete
    9. Hamas calls for the genocide of the Jews.

      Just as the Nazis were eliminated, so Hamas must be.

      Period.

      Delete
    10. "Hamas calls for the genocide of the Jews.

      "Just as the Nazis were eliminated, so Hamas must be.

      "Period."

      Yes. But it's even more so Fatah-PLO that is a danger to Israel than is Hamas a danger to Israel. Fatah-PLO is an ideologically and intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish organization which was originated by a co-architect of the Nazi 'Final Solution', Haj Amin al-Husseini. The PLO Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. The current leader of Fatah-PLO, Mahmoud Abbas, is the author of a strategy of deceit -- the 'Plan of Phases' -- to destroy Israel. Fatah-PLO has murdered -- targeted and killed -- hundreds of Jewish people -- Jewish civilians -- in Israel. And Fatah-PLO has been legitimized -- by having had lies obfuscating its nature and actions told (by the U.S. government, and by West European governments, and, most detrimentally, by the leaders of the government of Israel). And Fatah-PLO has been, and is, supported -- financed and armed -- by the U.S. government, and by West European governments, and, most detrimentally, by the leaders of the government of Israel.

      Telling the truth (and thereby delegitimizing Fatah-PLO and Hamas) and doing wise non-violent action (defunding Fatah-PLO and Hamas, disarming Fatah-PLO and Hamas, isolating Fatah-PLO and isolating Hamas, disempowering Fatah-PLO and Hamas, and therein eliminating Fatah-PLO and Hamas) will protect Israel.

      To protect Israel it is necessary to do wise non-violent action.

      The main thing is to tell the truth. The main thing is for the leaders of the government of Israel to tell the truth -- the facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in -- to the Western mass media, in press conferences, on television; directly, in person, to the leaders of the governments of Western countries; in the U.S. congress, in speeches; and to the people of Israel.

      Delete
    11. This is how to go after the criminals:

      http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=306458

      Delete
    12. It's no wonder that Francisco Gil-White thinks that the leaders of the government of Israel (and other "Jewish leaders", and relatively many Jewish academics) are consciously, intentionally, colluding with Western anti-Jewish bigots -- the U.S. governmental Establishment (the State Department, the CIA, U.S. executive administrations) -- to destroy Israel. For someone who doesn't quite understand Jewish Stockholm Syndrome, and who isn't aware of, and who doesn't understand, Jewish obtuseness -- someone such as Francisco Gil-White -- there can be no other explanation for why the leaders of the government of Israel (and other "Jewish leaders", and relatively many Jewish academics) have been behaving the way that they have been behaving.

      The Problem of Jewish Self-Defense, by Francisco Gil-White
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders3.htm

      "What is the problem with the Israeli ruling elite? Is it stupidity? Or is it something else?"

      A Microcosm of the Jewish Self-Defense Problem - A brief look into the Jewish people's faulty immune system
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/seidler-feller-neuwirth.htm

      "A prominent Los Angeles rabbi physically assaulted a Jewish woman on the steps of Royce Hall, UCLA. This woman was then attacked again -- and the rabbi defended -- on the pages of Los Angeles Magazine. What is at stake? The survival of the Jewish people."

      On the supposed ‘about face’ of some anti-Israeli historians (Benny Morris and Nathan Weinstock), by Francisco Gil-White
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/about_face.htm

      "Perhaps it is not what it seems."

      Where’s Waldo? -- The search for an Israeli politician who will speak the truth to Israelis, by Francisco Gil-White
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/wheres_waldo.htm

      "Israelis, and the world, are badly in need of an Israeli politician that will explain to them the German Nazi origins of PLO/Fatah—the supposed ‘partner for peace’ to whom the Israeli government will soon bequeath strategic Israeli territory. The consequences of such an Israeli politician would be far reaching, not just for Israel, but for the entire West in its fight against Islam."

      ----

      Is the US an ally of Israel? - A chronological look at the evidence, by Francisco Gil-White
      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally.htm

      ----

      A repository of information about the post-WWII organization of the German Nazis and the U.S. governmental collusion with them (the "Underground Reich"):

      http://spitfirelist.com

      "Web site and blog of anti-fascist researcher and radio personality Dave Emory"

      Contains many interviews with John Loftus.

      John Loftus was a federal prosecutor with the U.S. Justice Department and had above Top Secret security clearance in the U.S. government.

      The Secret War Against the Jews, by John Loftus and Mark Aarons
      http://books.google.com/books/about/The_secret_war_against_the_Jews.html?id=trU7nY-T-4EC

      America's Nazi Secret: An Insider's History, by John Loftus
      http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Nazi-Secret-Insiders-History/dp/1936296047

      John Loftus, and, I think, Dave Emory, are Democrats. Oldschool Democrats. Democrats as were Democrats when the Democratic party was anti-fascist, not pro-fascist, and not fascist itself.

      "The liberal project began to fail when it began to lie."

      -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan, sociologist, U.S. Senator, U.S. Ambassador, Democrat

      Delete
    13. And thank you for that link, oldschooltwentysix.

      Delete
    14. But, Re: that link

      I think that prosecuting "Palestine" -- and therein legitimizing, and actually creating, a state "Palestine", headed by Fatah-PLO -- is a huge mistake. It's just more of the same foolish obtuse detrimental self-destructive behavior by "Jewish leaders".

      What needs to be done is to prosecute Fatah-PLO.

      Delete
    15. I'm sorry for my harsh writing in my previous message.

      They meant well. They just got it wrong.

      They just need to prosecute not "Palestine", but, rather, Fatah-PLO.

      And again:

      Where’s Waldo? -- The search for an Israeli politician who will speak the truth to Israelis, by Francisco Gil-White

      "Israelis, and the world, are badly in need of an Israeli politician that will explain to them the German Nazi origins of PLO/Fatah—the supposed ‘partner for peace’ to whom the Israeli government will soon bequeath strategic Israeli territory. The consequences of such an Israeli politician would be far reaching, not just for Israel, but for the entire West in its fight against Islam. ..."

      http://www.hirhome.com/israel/wheres_waldo.htm

      Delete
  7. Thank you for this conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thirded. I have to set some time aside later tonight to read the whole exchange...

    ReplyDelete