Wednesday, April 3, 2013

The Great Palestinian Lie

Mike L.



I put this one up as a simple reminder.

27 comments:

  1. You could post his latest as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxlO7DLC6p8&feature=em-uploademail

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    1. Upon watching this video, I have to say that there is a line here, School, that I am not yet prepared to cross.

      Not yet.

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    2. School,

      it's a porous line, I'll tell you that.

      It's the line between Islam and political Islam.

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    3. I might say between Islam and those who practice or sympathize with political Islam.

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    4. I posted the latest video without too much squeamishness although I put "Islam" in parenthesis. I think it is a fair question are Muslims offended by "political Islam" and the barbaric and misogynistic attitudes and practices presented in the name of Islam? And if not why not? And if so why don't they say so? After all it is their religion that is being defiled.

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    5. There's no such thing as "apolitical Islam"; Islam like [Orthodox] Judaism has a code of law with rules for all facets of life including politics. Separation of religion and state is a concept found in religions with an apolitical theoretical basis such as Christianity and Buddhism (though there are and have been political strains of those religions), but not in law-code religions like Judaism and Islam.

      (There's the inevitable question from some, especially secular and Christian readers: "So what's to prefer Jews over Muslims?" My answer is: Neutrality would be just fine, but if you'd rather take sides then Judaism wins because it holds its political program to apply to just one nation in one country, whereas Islam is held by its believers as meant to be foisted upon all human beings everywhere.)

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    6. Which makes Orthodox Judaism easy to accommodate within a secular framework. No more difficult than most political groups anyway. "Political Islam", what ever you call it, is damn near impossible.

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    7. I say apolitical Islam in the same sense that there are Jews and Christians that defined themselves as such yet are hardly practitioners.

      That is not to say that Islam's intolerance of apostasy is far more troubling than for Jews and Christians, or that far too many Muslims are bent on achieving submission.

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  2. You have to understand that Pat Condell is a fairly militant atheist who has little good to say about ANY organized religion.

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    1. His main target is "Islam" which he attacks on traditional liberal grounds although he has unloaded against Christians, and especially Catholics which he once was. He has no time for special dealings or entrenched privileges for organised religion.

      He exempts Judaism because as he puts it "Jews don't care what you are so long as you leave them alone" and he "likes that". Also he does not see any of the pleading for special treatment and privilege that he perceives in the other religions and especially Islam.

      Like most atheists in my experience he does not have a problem with organised religion so long as it does not presume to get in his face or retard society by for example warping the education system ("Creationism" etc)

      Apart from the atheist bit I have to say I feel pretty much the same way.

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  3. If the problem is Islam, in general, then we are engaging in a fight that we cannot possibly win.

    What we can do is support those whose values and interests align with our own and oppose those whose values and interests do not. In the Middle East this means supporting the secularists and those Muslims... if there are any of sizable number... who are opposed to the imposition of Sharia, as well as strongly supporting Israel.

    Just as in the US the fight is not against Christianity, but the imposition of Christianity into law, so in the Middle East the fight should not be against Islam, but political Islam.

    This is why I draw the distinction between the two. While it is true that within Islam there is no separation of mosque and church, it is also true that there are many millions of Muslims in the world who have no particular interest in living under Sharia.

    These people are potential allies.

    In any case, US needs to stop supporting the rise of political Islam throughout the Middle East. Given the Nazi roots of the Brotherhood, Obama should never have stood with them.

    I still think that he really doesn't know what the hell that he is doing... I know others disagree.

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    1. You say:

      "it is also true that there are many millions of Muslims in the world who have no particular interest in living under Sharia."

      Why don't they have that interest, as Muslims, and how does that view spread?

      Or is the trend in the opposite direction among the masses, toward greater hatred of the West?

      It was good to read this, at EofZ,

      http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/04/egyptian-op-ed-muslims-will-not-win.html

      and believe these ideas are starting to become more conventional to show where the problem exists.

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    2. School,

      Why don't they have that interest, as Muslims, and how does that view spread?

      It's cultural. From what I can tell most young American Muslims, if not American Muslims more generally, do have that interest and share that view. Most of them do not want to live under Sharia, either.

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    3. "If the problem is Islam, in general, then we are engaging in a fight that we cannot possibly win."

      That's from the point of view of this war as a military conflict, on the WWII model. But I don't take that view—nay, I hold this view to be the great mistake in thinking made following 9/11. My view of this war is of nation-states under internal attack, by civilian armies of invader-immigrants. Under this view, there is not 1.6 billion people to fight but only the local contingent of Islamic colonists in one's own country. And the prime difficulty in that isn't the way but the will.

      "What we can do is support those whose values and interests align with our own and oppose those whose values and interests do not. In the Middle East this means supporting the secularists and those Muslims"

      When non-Muslim cartoonists are in hiding, you propose relying on outright "apostates"? I think that's simply not realistic.

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    4. The problem is malicious extreme anti-Jewish bigotry. It's an ideology.

      And malicious extreme anti-Jewish bigotry is inherent in, and is a core part of, authoritative orthodox Islam. And there was a revival of authoritative orthodox Islam in the 1920's, and it combined with Nazi ideology in the 1930's and 1940's - due, in most part, to Haj Amin al-Husseini. Haj Amin al-Husseini was the founder of the 'Palestinian movement', and was an early leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and was one of the main founders of the modern Islamic supremacist political movement -- a revival of authoritative orthdodox Islam -- and was a resident of Germany from 1941 to 1945, and was an adjoined official of the Nazi regime of Germany, and was the head of the Arab Higher committee, and was the originator of Fatah, and was the mentor of Yasser Arafat. And Nazi ideology was a culmination of continuous two-thousand-year old Western anti-Jewish bigotry.

      Asking what the problem is is just like asking what the problem was with the Nazis. It's the same thing. Malicious extreme anti-Jewish bigotry -- ideologically genocidal conspiracy-theory anti-Jewish bigotry. And it's now global -- Western, Arab, Islamic, and global. It's being spread globally -- via the Western libeling of, and vilification of, Israel; and via the Islamic libeling of, and vilification of, Israel. But most importantly by, and most influentially by, the Western libeling of, and vilification of, Israel; and by, as part of that, the Western (governmental, mass media, academic, etc.) collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

      The problem is an ideology -- the propagation of an ideology: genocidal anti-Jewish ideology -- genocidal libels against the Jewish people.

      To counter the problem and dispel the problem what needs to be done is to tell the facts that dispel the libels.

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    5. "To counter the problem and dispel the problem what needs to be done is to tell the facts that dispel the libels."

      ...tell the fact to the West -- to the people of the West -- in particular, to the American people.

      To stop the Western racist war on Israel, and to, as part of that, stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the Islamic supremacist political movement, and to, as part of that, stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish organizations of the ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish 'Palestinian movement'.

      And, as part of that, and what is crucially important, is to stop the Israeli government's collusion with, and enablement of, the Nazi-originated ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish pre-eminent organization of the ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish 'Palestinian movement' -- Fatah-PLO.

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    6. Zion, it's not a matter of relying upon apostates but of the US need to stand up for US interests.

      Supporting the Brotherhood, as I am sure that you would agree, is not to support US interests.

      Supporting those Muslims in Egypt who tend to be more secular, or at least more moderate, such as those who are currently struggling against the Islamist regime is in America's interests.

      I think Glick is correct. For American to stand up for its interests it needs to oppose its enemies and support its friends.

      Ultimately that's the point.

      If the problem is Islam, in general, then we are engaging in a fight that we cannot possibly win.

      The very last thing in this world that I imagine is a military campaign against the Muslim people. Not only is such a thing ridiculously undesirable, I cannot even begin to imagine what it would look like.

      What I am saying is that if we conceive of Islam, in itself, as the enemy of the Jewish people and the west as a whole, then we have no chance because on no level, either militarily or ideologically, can we ever possibly take down Islam, even if that were a desirable goal.

      What I am say, however, is that we can reasonably, and with the support of many Muslims around the world, oppose political Islam, or Islamism, and thus oppose not just Qaeda, as Obama does, but all Islamist groups.

      The US should oppose the Brotherhood and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the government of Iran and all other countries which adopt an Islamist government. Instead the Obama administration plays grab ass with these groups on the false notion that they represent some form of "moderate" Islamism, a notion that is self-contradictory on its face.

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    7. "What I am saying is that if we conceive of Islam, in itself, as the enemy of the Jewish people."


      Mike, Islam, as defined by the official religious texts of Islam, is, in itself, an enemy of the Jewish people.

      It's not about conceiving of Muslims as a social cultural group as being, as a whole, enemies of the Jewish people.

      It's about a totalitarian supremacist imperialist ideology -- authoritative Islam ("political Islam") -- of which there has been a revival, and of which now has powerful political organizations (including governments of national states), and which is an ideology that many Muslims are currently adhering to - that views the Jewish people as being inherently cosmically evil and which mandates the destruction of the Jewish people.

      And that's irrelevant.

      The main problem is the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the revival of "political Islam". And the Western collusion with the revival of "political Islam" is a result of, and is part of, the Western bigoted anti-Jewish war on Israel.

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    8. "What I am say, however, is that we can reasonably, and with the support of many Muslims around the world, oppose political Islam, or Islamism, and thus oppose not just Qaeda, as Obama does, but all Islamist groups."

      Yes.

      But especially with support of apostates from Islam.

      But, unfortunately, many of them have been indoctrinated with the Western libels against Israel. So we need to inform them of the facts of the situation that Israel is in.

      "The US should oppose the Brotherhood and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the government of Iran and all other countries which adopt an Islamist government. Instead the Obama administration plays grab ass with these groups on the false notion that they represent some form of "moderate" Islamism, a notion that is self-contradictory on its face."

      Yes. But why isn't the U.S. government opposing the Muslim Brotherhood, and the regime in Iran, etc., and why, instead, is the U.S. government colluding with those groups?

      Because the people who control U.S. foreign policy (the State Department et al) hold Western bigoted anti-Jewish wrong views, and as part of that, hold bigoted (imbecilic insane) wrong views about Israel.

      And why are those people who control U.S. foreign policy being allowed and enabled to be doing that which they're doing? Because they, and others, are propagating libels against Israel -- the lie that Israel is the aggressive malevolent force in the Middle East, and the lie that Israel controls the foreign policy of the U.S. government.

      To stop all of this what needs to be done is to tell -- to the American people in general -- the facts of the Western bigoted anti-Jewish war on Israel and to tell the facts of the Nazi origin and nature of Fatah-PLO.

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    9. Resources by ex-Muslims:

      FaithFreedom.org -- We are Against Hate, Not Faith
      http://www.faithfreedom.org

      Apostates of Islam
      http://apostatesofislam.com

      Amil Imani
      http://amilimani.com

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      Some additional information about the Muslim world-view and about the tenets of Islam:

      Raymond Ibrahim: The Muslim Perspective
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-MXrGjujjo

      3 Things You Should Know About Islam ما يجب أن تعرفه عن الإسلام (This is a video originally posted by a group of German non-Muslims on their YouTube channel "TheWhiteR0ses" (named in reference to a German intellectual non-violent anti-Nazi group from the 1940's named "The White Rose" (whose leaders were eventually captured and executed by the Nazis)), and this instance of this video is posted by an ex-Muslim (whose username is IHateAllReligions))
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHdMlT3E7cg

      Islam was not for me - Amil Imani (Free Iran)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4_BfhrIxg8

      Ex-Muslim, whistleblower Imani cautions 'infidels': "Stop sharia before it stops you"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXzDAhQPcX0

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    10. Dan, here we in some measure disagree.

      The US Department of State, as well as the government more generally, supports the Brotherhood not out of anti-Semitism, but out of the traditional Arabist trend within the State Department and because we have a US president influenced by post-colonial theory.

      In certain cases, such as that of Chuck Hagel, anti-Semitism is merely a contributing factor.

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    11. Mike,

      What has been, for the past over sixty years, and what is currently, the "Arabist" trend within the State Department is anti-Jewish bigotry.

      What has been, for the past over sixty years, and what is currently, the State Department's, and the members of, in general, the U.S. governmental foreign policy establishment's, covert detrimental undermining of the safety of the intendedly genocidally besieged liberal democratic very small sole nation of the Jewish people has been, and is, anti-Jewish bigotry.

      And the anti-Jewish bigotry publicly expressed by Chuck Hagel and held by people such as Chuck Hagel cannot be merely incidental to, and has not been merely incidental to, the hostile detrimental actions that people such as Chuck Hagel have done toward the intendedly genocidally besieged liberal democratic very small sole nation of the Jewish people.

      And, in any case, the hostile detrimental actions that the members of the State Department, and the members of, in general, the U.S. governmental foreign policy establishment, have done toward Israel are the hostile detrimental actions that the members of the State Department, and the members of, in general, the U.S. governmental foreign policy establishment, have done toward Israel.

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  4. How can there be any hope of peace when "moderate," peace partner, Abbas, says this stuff:

    "Addressing Fatah leaders in Ramallah, Abbas said that Israel was “apparently seeking to create confusion and chaos in the Palestinian territories.”

    Referring to the killing of two Palestinian teenagers near Tulkarem earlier Thursday, Abbas asked: “How can peaceful demonstrations lead to the death of two martyrs and before that others? Allah knows what is going on.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-Israel-is-responsible-for-West-Bank-tensions-308693

    Never mind the "peaceful," teenagers were charging a guard post with Molotov cocktails.

    What a freaking farce it all is.

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  5. Concerning our discussion here take note that Abbas is invoking, "Allah." Another piece of the puzzle I suggest.

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  6. Doodad, and everyone else,

    PA (Fatah-PLO) Chairman Mahmoud Abbas: EU Can Remove Hamas from Terror List, No Difference between Our Policies and Theirs, Russia Today TV, March 15, 2013
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHUT7iTXULU

    PA (Fatah-PLO) President, Mahmoud Abbas: "Present to us something sensible. Don't present to us 'The Jewish State', we will never accept it.", Rahmallah, August 27, 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqoMKZaTxU

    Abbas Zaki, Fatah Central Committee Member: President [Mahmoud Abbas] understands, we understand, and everybody knows, that the greater goal can't be accomplished in one go...If one says that one wants to wipe Israel out: c'mon, it's too difficult...Don't say these things to the world, Al-Jazeera, Qatar, September 23, 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3OTN2DkL6A

    PA (Fatah-PLO) Chairman Mahmoud Abbas says that, about belief and policy, there are no disagreements between Fatah and Hamas, PA TV, Dec. 31, 2009
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFCsZxl25yY

    Abbas Zaki, Fatah Central Committee Member on Israel-Hamas conflict: "May Allah bless Islamic Jihad, may Allah bless Hamas", Wattan TV, Nov. 21, 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDMSkJaPEI

    Mahmoud Abbas's advisor and representative delivers a speech in Abbas's name: Abbas to Israeli Prime Minister: "You are incidental in history. We are the owners of history", PA TV (Fatah), May 14, 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x5vibgnrnM

    PA TV defines "Palestine" as being: Tel Aviv, Haifa, Galilee, Negev and all of Israel, PA TV (Fatah), April 11, 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV2PDCuM5rc

    Arafat compares Oslo Accords to a peace agreement that Muhammad made and then broke, PA TV (Fatah), April 16, 1995
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3tFYmMpd3A

    Yasser Arafat denounces the Oslo accords, Johannesburgh, May 10, 1994
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDj7bg0lN44

    Abd al-Bari 'Atwan, Al-Quds al-Arabi Editor-in-Chief, Confidant of Yasser Arafat, ABN TV, Feb. 16, 2006:

    "After the Oslo Accords were signed, I went to Tunisia to visit him [Arafat] in July. I told him: 'We disagree. I don't support this agreement. It will harm us.'

    "[Arafat] told me: 'By Allah, I will drive them crazy. I will make these [Oslo] Accords a disaster for them [Israel]. It won't be in my lifetime, but you will see the Israelis run away from Palestine. Have a little patience.'"

    http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=711&fld_id=723&doc_id=1475

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmzmX-U7b0Q

    On the PLO's strategic policy 'Plan of Phases' developed by, and named by, the PLO in 1974:

    The PLO Phased Plan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCGIl7Io75U

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    A little bit on Haj Amin al-Husseini -- the founder of the "Palestinian Arab national movement", an early leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a resident of Germany from 1941 to 1945, an adjoined official of the Nazi regime of Germany, a co-architect of the Nazi 'Final Solution', the head of the Arab Higher Committee, the originator of Fatah, and the mentor of Yasser Arafat:

    Hitler and the Mufti
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY

    Jihad and Jew-Hatred: An Interview with Matthias Küntzel

    "...The main achievement of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was to combine the Jew-hatred of ancient Islam with modern anti-Semitism into a new and persuasive rhetoric. I discovered a speech he gave in 1937 with the title, ‘Jewry and Islam.’ Here, he intermingled modern anti-Semitism [with] the stories of very early Islam, going back and forth from the 7th and the 20th centuries, and connecting both kinds of Jew-hatred. This was something new. ..."

    http://207.97.238.133/democratiya/article.php?article=249

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  7. Dan, thanks for the links. When one sees them altogether like that the agenda is clear except to utopian morons. And after this recent intifada like behaviour by the Palestinians one wonders...at least I do...what, AGAIN?????? Yes, again. That's what the freaks do.

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