{Cross-Posted at Pro-Israel Bay Bloggers}
I want to thank fizziks for taking the time to respond to my recent piece, "Where Am I Wrong, Fizziks?"
I also very much hope that he doesn't mind if I front page it, because I want to take some time to consider his thoughtful and intelligent response, which I am publishing below.
My thesis is that the progressive movement, and the grassroots / netroots of the Democratic Party, has betrayed its Jewish constituency through accepting anti-Semitic anti-Zionism as part of the larger coalition.
In the previous piece I offered four pieces of evidence.
1) That the larger progressive and Democratic blogs and journals express, at worst, a true hatred for the Jewish state and, at best, a comfortable acceptance of that hatred.
2) The ongoing agitation of anti-Semitic anti-Zionists within large Democratic and progressive venues such as Daily Kos, the Huffington Post, and the UK Guardian.
3) The polling which consistently shows that Republicans and conservatives are far more well-disposed to Israel than are Democrats and progressives. (Naturally, I will dig up those links in my response to fizziks.)
4) And the fact that Israel is the only country on the face of the planet in which progressives discuss whether or not it should ever have come into existence and whether or not it should continue to exist.
Below is fizziks' considered response and I will respond back in the coming days.
Mike L.
First, let me say that I don't ever read Huffington Post. I have no doubt that it is every bit as vile as Daily Kos if not moreso, but I just don't know enough about it to comment. The Guardian is a UK-based site and therefore not relevant to analyzing domestic political attitudes.
There is no doubt that Daily Kos is chock full of, and a home for, antisemites and anti-Zionists, and those are one in the same. And also that Markos Moulitsas himself is an antisemite, if not in intent, then certainly in effect, but my personal hunch is that it is both. That is why I left there, after all. And I fully believe you that Huffington Post is just as bad, if not worse.
Where we disagree in our analysis is whether Daily Kos et al., and the attitudes we see there, are representative of, or important in, the Democratic party. I believe the answer is no. Daily Kos is a forum that superficially claims the mantle of the Democratic party, but has been drifting from that for years, as evidenced by both the change in orientation in the readership away from mainstream Democratic party political participation (i.e. most people there will not vote for Obama, etc) and a change in the official mantra (i.e. it is no longer 'more and better Democrats'). I assume Huffington Post is similar.
In my view, these mentioned blogs are simply not places that are representative of, or important in, Democratic party politics. Therefore they cannot be used, at this time, as evidence of problems with the 'Democratic base' in regard to Israel. They are no more representative of the base of the Democratic party than Mondoweiss, where everyone to a man is a Ron Paul supporter, is representative of the base of the Republican party.
Just look at what happens in Daily Kos, versus in the 'real world', even in the most 'progressive' environments. For instance, anti-Israel measures have consistently failed in food co-ops around the country. Now you can't tell me that organic foodie stores in Ann Arbor, Park Slope, Seattle, Davis, Sacramento, and a host of other places are not representative of at least a slice of the progressive movement and Democratic base. And yet these communities have repeatedly defeated anti-Israel activity, even when deceptively wrapped up in the banner of 'peace'. As did the whole liberal town of Sommerville, MA, overwhelmingly. It doesn't get any more 'Democratic Base' than Sommerville.
As I have documented here many times, no national politicians of the Democratic party are open anti-Zionists. None. None have openly embraced any of the rhetoric or aims of anti-Zionism. None. The same cannot be said of the Republican party, by the way, where such Ron Paul has done just that, and is polling around 15-20%.
In fact, you are just incorrect when you imply that the 'progressive movement' is unique in questioning Israel's right to exist. Ron Paul did not only question it, he flatly stated it, and yet is polling 15-20% among Republican voters.
Do those generic 'support for Israel' poll numbers concern me? Yes they do, a bit. But what matters is that the Democratic Party, from its platform to the rhetoric of all of its politicians, has in no way embraced any anti-Zionism. I will gladly concede to you the day that it does.
In short, Daily Kos, and these other places like HuffPo, are rarified worlds that do not, a present, reflect the real world of the Democratic Party. Daily Kos is at present full of deranged keyboard warriors, most of whom are not even Democrats, and has a presently active readership of maybe 10,000 people. It has no prestige or power in the Democratic establishment anymore, and its' views, as evidenced by my co-op example above, do not reflect the views of the base of the Democratic party. Neither do the derangers at protests documented by Zombietime and so on. Those people are not Democrats. I am fighting like hell to keep it that way.
.
I am in essential agreement with much of this. Daily Kos is hardly worth the effort. It has value to reinforce my belief that, with exceptions, both sides can be cruel and inhuman in the discourse, and so-called progressives often play the reactionary role concurrent with progressive rhetoric. What a great way to solve issues, yes?
ReplyDeleteWhere I differ is with this remark:
They are no more representative of the base of the Democratic party than Mondoweiss, where everyone to a man is a Ron Paul supporter, is representative of the base of the Republican party.
The Democratic Party is not just made of its leaders that have responsibility in government. Like in matters between the political parties, much of the debate is from the activists and even the extremes.
Mondweiss and similar sites hurt the causes they wish to promote because of they are over the edge in content and behavior, but they sure feel good to the players.
In comparison, the memes of DK do filter to the mainstream in my opinion, and adversely affect Democrats that do not follow these issues closely and are prone to the prejudiced message. This is unfortunate when some of the anti-Israel crowd have disproportional influence.
There is a reason why so many elites and those on the left have turned against Israel. We see it at Daily Kos, even among many Obama supporters. It is courtesy of their brethren in Europe and the one sided orientation on the issues and illiberal means to implement policy. Once more, thanks to Europe's lust for oil and the fool's gold of security, the world is in jeopardy from an international threat to peace.
I don't think I really need to say it, but for the record, I agree with Fizzik's observations.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if anyone is wondering if there is a difference between Michael and Karmafish, there is not.
ReplyDeleteHere we are one and the same.
It's due to the fact that I am not particularly tech-savvy and whether the system recognizes me as "Michael" or as "Karmafish" depends on whether or not I am logged into Google or Disqus.
In truth, it's just a pain in the ass and my intention is to shed "Karmafish" entirely and just blog under my own name.
Maybe you'll come to my funeral when the Taliban get me.
;O)
Fair enough, but at least we can discuss it.
ReplyDeleteI mean, you know as well as I that progressive-left anti-Zionism is a part of the progressive movement.
In my opinion, we need to not dismiss this thing, nor underestimate it, nor fail to look at it closely.
We can disagree on what it means, but we can only even begin to do that if we discuss it.
Same goes for political Islam, which the progressive-left just has no idea whatsoever what do with other than turn a blind eye.
I don't even know what "part of the progressive movement" means. I mean, I don't know where I fall...progressive...democrat...liberal...leftist. Some piece of all of those. But other than the Democrats, none have anything close to an official platform. I don't agree with everything that every self-identfied progressive or liberal wants. That's ok. It doesn't stop me from being either. As far as electoral politics, there's nowhere else for me to go besides the Democratic party. Instead of having a small minority of people with whom I disagree on a small number of issues, I disagree with almost all conservatives on almost every issue. So the Republican party is a non-starter.
ReplyDeleteAnd on political Islam, I can't turn a blind eye. But I also don't know the right thing to do about it other than to call it what it is.
And on another topic, are you going to spring training?
ReplyDeleteI have to say, I am very much looking forward to addressing fizziks' challenge to my argument.
ReplyDeleteI am not someone impervious to reasoned arguments and if the conversation remains respectful, which I see no reason why it shouldn't, it could help me to continue modifying my views.
They are in flux, after all, as Kane could well attest.
For the moment, tho, I very much want to address this:
"I fully believe you that Huffington Post is just as bad, if not worse."
Oh, my.
You guys really need to check out Matt and Zach over at the Huffpost Monitor.
http://hpmonitor.blogspot.com/
The Huffington Post makes Daily Kos look like Arutz Sheva.
Daily Kos doesn't have much in the way of crude anti-Semitism. If you want to see truly rank anti-Semitism, keep an eye on Matt and Zach.
Actually, we are.
ReplyDeleteEarly March.
We need to see if that Posey kid can still hit after getting his leg broken at the plate last year.
You've put your finger on a hard part of this discussion.
ReplyDeleteThe meaning of terms.
Progressive? Liberal? Leftist? Right-Wing? Conservative? Fascist?And on and on.But, Kane, we cannot allow intellectual nitpicking to prevent us from recognizing that there is, in fact, an international effort to delegitimize Israel and that this effort has connections with actual Jihadis.Do you disagree?
Off-topic in a specific sense, but on-topic in a general sense; about the general situation:
ReplyDeleteThe hate, and antipathy, and blaming, and false accusing, towards Israel is being caused by the holding of belief in an untrue historical narrative that is being propagated against Israel, and which has been propagated against Israel - by Western governments, the Western mass-media, and Western academia (but especially Western governments - especially the government of the United States). However, the propagation of that untrue narrative that has been propagated against Israel has been so incremental, and so sophisticated, and has been so coupled with violent wars against Israel, and with mass-murderous terrorism against the Jewish people in Israel, and has been so constant, that most Jewish people themselves - Israeli and non-Israeli - now believe that untrue narrative and now take that untrue narrative for granted as being true. The Jewish leadership of the government of Israel, themselves, have been propagating that untrue narrative - by their, even from the beginning, not understanding the war being waged against Israel, and by them, even from the beginning, not telling, simply, the facts of the war being waged against Israel, and, then, by them starting to accept the untrue narrative being propagated against Israel, and, then, by them legitimizing, and colluding with, Fatah-PLO, and, then, as part of that, by them even starting to, themselves, reiterate the untrue narrative being propagated against Israel.
Solely stating that people who are hating and blaming and falsely accusing Israel are hating and blaming and falsely accusing Israel will not do anything.
The way to dispel the hate, and antipathy, and blaming, and false accusing, toward Israel is to dispel the untrue historical narrative that is being propagated against Israel and which has been propagated against Israel. The way to do that is simply to tell the factual history of the situation that Israel is in. However, now, whenever someone tells the factual history of the situation that Israel is in, they are not believed, and they are called liars - because the untrue historical narrative that is being propagated against Israel is being propagated even by the Jewish leaders of the government of Israel - by, in part, their silence, and, by, in other part, their explicit reiteration of the untrue historical narrative that's being propagated against Israel - by their accepting, and propagating the untrue historical narrative of there existing a so-called "Palestinian" people, and by their legitimizing, and colluding with, Fatah-PLO, which, in fact, is an actual Nazi organization.
In order to dispel the untrue narrative that is being propagated against Israel, the Jewish leaders of the government of Israel must stop propagating the untrue historical narrative that is being propagated against Israel, and, in order to dispel the untrue historical narrative that is being propagated against Israel, the Jewish leaders of the government of Israel - and, particularly, and ultimately, the Prime Minister of Israel - must tell the factual history of the situation that Israel is in. They must tell it to the Israeli Jewish people, and they must tell it to the television news mass media of Western countries, and they must tell it to the leaders of the governments of Western countries.
It's that simple. It's, really, that simple.
The facts that the leaders of the government of Israel must tell, and which Jewish people in general must tell, are the facts that I have written in the following comment.
http://karmafishies.blogspot.com/2012/02/volleyboy1-joins-anti-semites-in.html#comment-433297772