Friday, November 16, 2012

Daily Kos Comment of the Day

Mike L.
One man's terrorist.... (3+ / 0-)

is another's freedom fighter.

Israel terrorizes the Palestinians on a daily basis, and oppresses them at will. But the Israelis are somehow 'heroic' and 'good' and we are to support them unquestioningly.

But if a Palestinian should attempt to resist with anything other than words, he is automatically branded a 'terrorist' and fit for nothing but violent death.

Gaza is for all intents and purposes a concentration camp run by Israel.

But how DARE those ungrateful people resist their oppressors? Why won't they just do what Israel wants?

After all, Israel is 'good'.


Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller 
by databob on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 08:00:03 AM PST
Israel endured day after day of rocket attack before responding but, hey, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter."

 Killing Jews in the name of "human rights" is kool for these guys.

 The left is the new right.

People like the guy above are essentially Nazis.  They honestly believe that Arabs have good reason to murder Jews.  The hostile majority population in the Middle East outnumbers Jews by a factor of 50 or 60 to 1, yet the harassed Jewish minority is said to oppress the Arabs and, therefore, deserve whatever violence comes their way.

Just like the Jewish minority in Germany and Poland and the Ukraine, like my own family got it.  My entire father's side of the family was lined up in ditches that they were forced to dig under Nazi rifles, along with several thousand other Jews, and shot dead during Operation Barbarossa.

They apparently deserved it, as well, and I have not the least little bit of doubt that the idealistic Germans who followed Hitler likewise thought of themselves as morally righteous and just as likewise believed that the immoral Jews richly deserved a good ass kicking.
Gaza is for all intents and purposes a concentration camp run by Israel.
Yes, a "concentration camp" with shopping malls and luxury hotels.  The guy's another progressive-left anti-Jewish racist using the Holocaust as a club with which to smack around Jews.  They take the very worst thing that has ever happened to us as a people and they slap us in the face with it, even as the rockets are flying toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

And, yet, these insidious scum still think that they deserve our political support.

I say, no more.

No more political support for these vicious hypocrites who do not care if we live or die.  No more political support for "liberals" who have abandoned women and Gay people and Jews and all non-Muslims throughout the Middle East to the tender mercies of violent Jihadis.
But how DARE those ungrateful people resist their oppressors? Why won't they just do what Israel wants? 
Like cease trying to harass and murder Jews which they've been doing non-stop for 14 centuries on religious grounds?  They tell one another that Jews are hateful in the sight of Allah.  So, yes, how dare those dhimmis stand up and defend themselves.  Do you want to know why Jews represent such a small percentage of the world population?  It's because every generation they trim our numbers through acts of violence which they tell us that we deserve.

That's why.

I'm telling you, the progressive movement is absolutely toxic for world Jewry and we need to pull the plug on it.

They would sell us down the river in a New York minute.

Hell, they've already done so.

Stand up and be men and tell these swine that we're no longer going to put up with it.  We are no longer going to allow ourselves to be used as punching bags and in the name of "universal human rights," no less.

Stand up and fight back.

That's a primary Jewish value, too, dontcha know.

Thank G-d for Israel.  Diaspora Jewry may cling to its traditional ghetto pussitude, but the Israelis do not.

They need to eliminate Hamas... by any means necessary.


  1. It's not a matter of giving support, but of educating the majority to the proximity of the extremism in their midst that demonizes Israel and its supporters. The majority is generally supportive of Israel because, even with the filters that exist, it sees the larger issues presented in the context of Western values. Demonization is not conducive to education, and it turns the fair minded off. To call someone deranged or a "phobe" is not an argument designed to find a solution, but a weak attempt to destroy the chance.

    1. Education?

      I don't know.

      The Germans were, perhaps, the most educated people on the planet during the middle of the 20th century, School.

    2. Don't mean it in that sense. If more Germans were educated about the Nazi intentions, then there might have been a different result. Education means creating an environment that exposes the underlying context and provides alternatives. I suspect that most Democrats do not have a grasp on the conflict and therefore cannot appropriately address the extremism of the anti-Israel progressives.

    3. Yes, educated is the right word.

      In a previous comment I used the word educated (I used the phrase: highly educated) to refer to the leaders of the Islamic supremacist political movement (the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, etc.). In that instance I used the word educated incorrectly. I meant to write the word educated in quotes in that instance. I think that a correct word to use in that instance may be the word schooled (in Western universities in certain subjects, etc.).

  2. When you hear that "concentration camp," crap about Gaza you know you are dealing with a brainwashed, know nothing leftist or the simple-minded. Any rational person who had researched it would know the accusation is simple propaganda.

  3. Why should we continue to support a political movement that thinks that we're immoral even as they justify violence toward us?

    It doesn't make sense.

    How craven are diaspora Jews, anyway?

    1. What political movement do you mean? If you speak of the leftists that basically attack the West and deny Israel and Jews what they affirm for everyone else, then we should not support them. I suspect they do not want our support, either.

      I draw a distinction between them, and most Democrats, the latter of which are influenced by them and remain generally ignorant of context and facts, to which they should be informed in a straightforward way.

    2. I draw a distinction between them, and most Democrats...

      I made that mistake for many years, myself.

      The fact of the matter is that "most Democrats" do not really have much of a problem with the genocidal anti-Semites among them as we clearly see in the progressive-left venues.

      The lib-dems provide venues for the most atrocious forms of Jew hatred as anyone who reads, say, the HuffPost Monitor knows.

      Jewish people are only now waking up to the fact that an anti-Jewish worm has snaked itself around the core.

      It's time to move on.

      I know it's difficult to let go, but sometimes you have no choice.

    3. Where we differ is that I don't think most Democrats actually are aware of what is among them. They are subjected to a singular narrative that makes it harder for them to understand what is complex, yet many remain supportive of Israel and many more would be with the knowledge they are missing.

      As I said elsewhere, as the events unfold, I think that the Palestinians (Palestine) will wear out their welcome, finally. Their schtick is starting to be seen more clearly, not to mention their war crimes against civilians, theirs and others. Israel will gain more support in this vein. Further, as Egypt and other states show their true colors and come to support their brothers (that they usually ignore), this will push people (including Obama) further toward the Israeli perspective of the dangers, and put egg on the faces of those that laud the democratic Arab Spring.

    4. I sure hope you're correct on that last count, School.

      As for the first, I also agree with what you're saying, but I can't help but flash back on that party platform thing from earlier this year. That's still kind of troubling.

    5. Yes, it was very troubling. But it will not help bring change by ceding ground to these regressive progressives.

    6. Hmmm...

      it will not help bring change by ceding ground to these regressive progressives.

      Regressive Progressives!


      That's the best argument for sticking, as far as I can tell.

      I have chosen to leave the left and the Democratic party, but for those of you who stick, that's the argument that makes the most sense.

      I suspect that it's futile, and I think that we're better off making a very strong statement by telling them to go screw.

      BUT, if progressive-left Jews can turn things around, then I wish them nothing but the very best... I just don't see it happening.

      In fact, the reverse is taking place.

      On a certain level, it's a matter of self-respect, as well.

      I simply do not think that Jewish people should hang around where we are not appreciated and no one is going to tell me that the Democratic party appreciates its Jewish constituency after they downgraded the status of Israel in their platform.

    7. Not seeking progressive left Jews to turn things around because they are to beholden to the progressive left. It's those who are not in that group that are in need of information about the conflict. Now they rely too much on the progressive left. But when there is demonization, the larger group turns off, no matter who is making the argument.

  4. Melanie Philips gets it

    ".....The sustained dismissal of Israeli victimhood by the British media surely represents a desire at some level of the British mind to stamp out once and for all the idea that Jews are victims. For over and over again, and expressed in a myriad different ways, you hear in British educated discourse an unmistakeable and savage fury: that these wailing Jews are always waving the shroud of the Holocaust in our faces; that they seem to think they have some kind of monopoly on suffering, for heaven’s sake, as if the rest of us have no right to claim any suffering for ourselves; that they make themselves untouchable because of their wretched history; if only they would just shut up and go away and end these interminable accusations; and so of course we cannot allow them to be victims in Israel -- because unless we successfully recast them as latter-day Nazis, they will always be on our own conscience as the victims of us.

    When you look in horror and astonishment at the British media’s coverage of the onslaught upon Israel from Gaza and Israel's actions in self-defence – and from the messages I am receiving, there are still many, many decent Brits who are indeed appalled beyond measure by the eye-watering bias of the coverage from the BBC, Sky and much of the press – you might well conclude that more, much more, is actually going on here than standard knee-jerk prejudice or ignorance. This is the ugly sound of a very old score indeed that is being settled."

    1. Y'know, Doodad, it's bad enough that Arabs try to kill us, but western liberals justify it even as we lend them support.

      There is something very, very wrong in this entire dynamic.

      It's sick.

      Meanwhile, a Nazi like Diane Gee is on Daily Kos talking about Israeli Jewish aggression.

    2. That was an excellent post by Ms. Phillips about how far gone many are, lost in their constructs of reality that are essentially a perversion.

  5. Oh look, Daily Kos neo-Nazi Diane Gee has found a way in that thread to justify and voice support for the murder of every single Jew in Israel, while somehow pretending that she has no problem with Jews. Fascinating.


    I guess I missed it, if there was anything big there. Nothing was going on by 11:45, and then after I finished my food pantry work I walked past the site of the 'protest' again around 2:30.

    There were four twenty-something-year old Hamas fans huddled around a couple of signs arguing for an end to aid to Israel, somewhat half-blocking the entrance to 1880 JFK Blvd, site of the Israeli Consulate of Philadelphia. No desecrated Israeli flags or anything like that, fortunately. The dozens of Center City denizens milling about the block were paying them no mind.

    I didn't see what was going on earlier, but CBS and ABC were there so if anything happened I'm sure I'll see it on the teevee machine later.

    Btw, as I got back on the subway four blocks later, at 15th & Market? The quintessential Philadelphia moment. About 8 Black Israelites were set up across from City Hall, doing their "Kill Whitey" thing.

    If only they would have been a few blocks over, and a little earlier! I imagine mass confusion would have ensued.

    For those who are unfamiliar with the Black Israelites - they're really big in Philly, they're designated a hate group by the SPLC, they claim to be the true descendants of the ancient Israelites, and they really hate white people. And their signs contain many Stars of David. Which I'm sure would have caused a fantastic scene of hilarious confusion had they run into the (white) Hamas support group around the corner. What a missed opportunity!

    1. Okay, just saw video. ABC just showed about a ten-second clip. There seemed to be about a couple dozen on each side of the street. Looked to be maybe slightly more pro-Israel turnout than anti.

      Of course, the only person they focused close-in on was one guy holding a "Philadelphia Jews for a Just Peace" sign, with a few Palestinian flags around him. Eye roll.

      The height of things must have been around 12:30 or so, I missed it. Just like I knew I would. Bah.

      Anyway. There's probably more on the WPVI website, I'll look for it tonight.

    2. Also, just out of curiosity, I'd love to ask that PJJP guy, since he also apparently has the time on Friday afternoons (at least when he's not posing in front of cameras as a useful idiot for Hamas), why he's never taken the time on other occasions to just walk a few blocks on over to the Federation and help us out with our food pantry work, or with some other things?

      Or is he only Jewish when he's out protesting against Israel?

    3. "Or is he only Jewish when he's out protesting against Israel?"

      LOL Careful, you'll spill the beans on so many of them.

    4. You know who else made the same argument as Diane Gee that there are no innocent Israel Jews because all serve in the army? Egyptian sheikh Youssuf Qaradawi. Unlike Gee, however, Qaradawi is forthright in calling for murder of (Israeli) Jews, while Gee and others of these Daily Khmelnytskys leave it implicit.

    5. After the Mavi Marmara thing she called for the nuking of Israel.

    6. Not only nuking, but the shoving of nukes up rear ends. Don't forget that part. Heh.

      Yeah, apparently she seems to have eventually picked up on the fact that even at places like Daily Kos, you can't be that brazen. So now she doesn't have any problem with Jews qua Jews, you see, it's only the ones in Israel who are eligible to be called on for military service. Wink wink.

    7. It's all so evil and sick.

      Because the Jews were a tiny, persecuted minority for centuries in the Middle East, and because the vast Islamic majority still holds much genocidal hatred for the Jewish people, Israel must have a mandatory service requirement.

      It's precisely because we are so outnumbered in that part of the world, and so persecuted in that part of the world, that all Israeli Jews serve in the IDF.

      And what many Palestinians say, and what the Insidious What's Her Face tells people, is that it is precisely because the Jews must defend themselves that it's open season upon us.

      She sits up there, safe and sound in the United States, and lectures the most persecuted people in the history of the planet on morality as the bombs drop around them.

      And does so in the name of human rights, no less.

      So, tell me, is that not evil and sick?

    8. Diane Gee is a disgusting person. She would have gladly held the oven doors open during WW2.

    9. Yes, it is evil and sick. But you knew that already. ;)

      Some of them really do seem to suffer from a serious disconnection from reality, however, and just can't fathom the simple points you're making. It goes against everything that they 'know.' Those evil white European colonialists killing for fun and profit and food and organs! And whatnot. The idiots amongst them are easy enough to explain, but it never ceases to amaze me how many of them who are not obviously stupid also believe these things.

  6. Check out my responses, and other people's responses, to a "slick" anti-Jewish racist (perhaps Western or perhaps Iranian regime) trying to sell "slick" intendedly genocidal anti-Israeli anti-Jewish lies:

    ---- Beginning of excerpts of my first comment ----

    Re: your assertion that Israel is of "no strategic significance" to the U.S.:

    Israel Innovation

    BTW: Do you like your computer? How about the technical capabilities of U.S. military intelligence?

    And, for that matter: How about Western civilization?


    Israel’s Peculiar Position, by Eric Hoffer, May 26, 1968

    Vergognosi gli attacchi a Israele, by Orianna Falaci, 2002

    ---- End of excerpts of my first comment ----

    1. ---- Beginning of excerpts of my second comment ----

      So, are you CIA or State Department? Or are you just along those lines?


      You wrote:

      " largely dependent on foreign aid to sustain its economy and military. Without Western (especially U.S.) support, the Israeli economy and military would collapse."

      That's a lie.

      The U.S. government's aid to Israel constitutes about three percent of Israel's budget. It's insane that the leaders of the government of Israel are as supplicant to the hostile U.S. government(1) as they are. It's just a part of Jewish Stockholm Syndrome.

      But, regardless of Israel's strategic existential importance to the U.S., and to Western civilization, and to the whole world:

      Is protecting the Jewish people in Israel from genocide a moral obligation? Obviously it's not viewed as such by you.


      The Secret War Against the Jews, by John Loftus and Mark Aarons

      America's Nazi Secret: An Insider's History, by John Loftus


      Big Oil Underwrites Anti-Israel Conference, by Cliff Kincaid

      Johann von Leers and Walt/Mearsheimer, by Clemens Heni


      Who is Who in German trade with Iran?, by Matthias Küntzel

      Ahmadinejad's Bank, by Matthias Küntzel


      Iranian Antisemitism: Stepchild of German National Socialism, by Matthias Küntzel

      What Iranian Leaders Really Say about Doing Away with Israel - A Refutation of the Campaign to Excuse Ahmadinejad's Incitement to Genocide

      ---- End of excerpts of my second comment ----


      (1) Is the Is the US an ally of Israel? A chronological look at the evidence, by Francisco Gil-White

    2. Iranian Freedomfighter Warns the West; Reza Kahlili, former member of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard


      The Coming is Upon Us; Internal program by the Iranian regime; translated into English by Reza Kahlili

      Part 1 of 2:
      Part 2 of 2:

      Hassan Rahimpour Azghadi, Member of the Iranian Supreme Council for Cultural Revolution, Calls to Conduct Sabotage Operations in "Heart of Europe"

      Hizbullah MP General (ret.) Walid Sakariya: Iranian Nuclear Weapon to "Finish Off the Zionist Entity", Al-Manar TV (Lebanon) - August 7, 2012

      Hizbullah MP: Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Hizbullah Will Wipe Out Israel

      Iranian Antisemitic Film "Saturday Hunter" Depicts Jews Massacring Arabs, Seeking God-Like Powers, Channel 1 (Iran) - August 17, 2012

      "Shabbat hunter" anti-Semitic Iranian film


      The previously listed instances of these videos, which I linked to in my second comment on that post on Jihad Watch, and which I think I've linked to, previously, here on Israel Thrives, have been deleted. These are links to other instances of those videos. View them before they may be deleted. And, if possible, download them. And, if possible, mirror them.


      MEMRI TV (The Middle East Media Research Institute TV Monitor Project)

  7. Another Jewish traitor, Assaf, has a diary up blaming Israel for it all. Naturally the usual suspects are cheering him on. Assaf hates Israel for lots of reasons but we should remember the big one...because he did not get some University job he wanted in Israel. HA! Phoney asshole.

    1. Ah, Assaf. The guy who takes 900 words to say what can be said in nine. His head is up his ass, but that still doesn't mean he knows shit.

      Yeah, he claims he didn't get a teaching job at a university in Israel because of his politics. Couldn't have been for any other reason, no sir. And yeah, being loudly anti-Israel is certainly a death kiss for anyone seeking professorships! Oh, wait a second...

      He wrote 165,000 words on it somewhere over there a couple years ago, if I recall.

  8. CNN Uses Video Footage Of Faked Palestinian 'Injuries'

    BBC Lies About Gaza Victim

    "Is there a limit to the number of times the news media will act as willing accomplices for Palestinian propaganda?"

    Hat tip to Jihad Watch (


    Anti-Semitism 2.0, by Mudar Zahran -- 'Palestinian' Arab writer and academic from Jordan who currently resides in the U.K. as a political refugee

    "The concept of the 'evil Jew' has made a well-disguised comeback: Criticizing Israel and Zionists is now deemed a legitimate option to cursing Jews and Judaism. Not only is it open, socially acceptable and legal, but it can actually bring prosperity and popularity. This new form of anti-Semitism 2.0 is well-covered-up, harder to trace and poses a much deeper danger to the modern way of life of the civilized world than the earlier crude form of it, as it slowly and gradually works on delegitimizing Jews to the point where it eventually becomes acceptable to target Jews, first verbally, then physically -- all done in a cosmopolitan style where the anti-Semites are well-groomed speakers and headline writers in jackets and ties; and not just Arab, but American and European, from 'sanitized' news coverage of the most bloodthirsty radicals, to charges against Israel in which facts are distorted, selectively omitted or simply untrue, as in former President Jimmy Carter's book on Israel. ..."


    "sheik yer'mami":

    "Mackie sez:

    "'numerous staged scenes by the Palestinians to get the ever so culpable and naive media to do their propaganda'-

    "LOL! The enemedia 'naive?' They're not.

    "They're hardcore Jew-haters."

    ...and immoral ignorant Jewish severe-Stockholm-syndrome-experiencing people of no integrity -- the Theobalds of Cambridge of our time.

    Not “Self-”Hating Jews, but Jewish Scourges of Jews

    1. Yeah, "self-hating" is definitely a misnomer. They love themselves.

      It's "those other Jews over there" that they hate.

    2. And some of them save their purest hate for "those embarrassing liberals amongst us who still support Israel."

      Haters gonna hate, baby.


    3. "Yeah, 'self-hating' is definitely a misnomer. They love themselves.

      "It's 'those other Jews over there' that they hate."


      The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege, by Dr. Kenneth Levin

    4. "It's 'those other Jews over there' that they hate."

      Because they're afraid of being hated by non-Jewish people - the non-Jewish majority (the culturally Christian-European (Christian and post-Christian) majority, and also the Muslim Middle Eastern majority).

      It's all based on fear. It's a result of trauma. Psychological besiegement.

      And also egotism (and, involved with that, culturally chauvinistic cultural self-identity). ("I am morally superior. (And 'We' (my people) are morally superior, and I need to prove that 'We' are superior (because I am morally superior and because 'We' are being accused of being evil))").

      This is an unwholesome state of mind.

      This unwholesome state of mind can be cured, or at least alleviated, by mindfulness.

      Knowledge of what in fact is the case about the situation that Israel is in (the history of the situation; the current reality of the situation; the reality of Israeli society and culture) is what can begin to start mindfulness.

      Israeli life and culture

      The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege, by Dr. Kenneth Levin

  9. "regressive progressives"

    What a great phrase.

  10. The bottom line, it seems to me, is that Israel very much needs to eliminate Hamas.

    They could do it except for the fact that if they were to do it the western governments, and peoples, would scream bloody murder.

    Israel supplies both water and electricity to a government, and to a people, who are sworn to kill Jews.

    Don't you find this rather odd?

    1. "Israel supplies both water and electricity to a government, and to a people, who are sworn to kill Jews.

      "Don't you find this rather odd?"

      It's surreal and absurd -- and, moreover, perverse and immoral.

      But it's standard operating procedure of Jewish people. And it's what's demanded of Jewish people by culturally Christian-European people (including American), and by Muslim Middle Eastern people -- because it's standard operating procedure of Jewish people.

      That should change.

      Don't harm.

      Don't harm yourself and don't harm others.

  11. Israel


    To diaspora "Court Jews" and Israeli remnant "Court Jews",

    Get out of the ghetto of your mind. Go into the sunshine of freedom. You are normal human beings. And so are all of your fellow human beings who are Jewish. And you, and they, deserve to be treated with at least normal human decency.

    The Psychology of Populations under Chronic Siege, by Dr. Kenneth Levin

  12. Kos Kapo David Harris-Gershon is back with more. This time, he's dealing in neo-Nazi ZOG disguised as 'snark.' It's okay though, racist pieces of shit like angry marmot and SCFrog love him and will give him a scratch behind the ear for being a 'Good Jew.' They'll probably even maybe consider buying his book, too.

    I'm sure that scumbag is still going to continue to pretend that he isn't a virulent anti-Israel fanatic (now featuring ZOG!) though. No, sir.

    1. Saw that Jay. ZOG disguised as snark....testing the waters so that next time he does it it doesn't have to be snark, no doubt.

    2. Where will it end, is the question?

      Will he pull a Khazar diary out of his hood... I mean, his hat... next? Perhaps maybe a sympathetic profile of Gilad Atzmon? Will he test the waters on a plan where $1 of every book sale will go toward funding Hezbollah?

    3. Yeah, Jewish people are wounded.

      And Jewish people who libel the Jewish people are a manifestation of that.

      The Jewish people are a traumatized people.

      But if one is mindful, one can make the situation that oneself is in better and one can help others too -- even just by helping oneself -- but also by being kind and helpful to others. It's difficult, but it's possible. It's what is good to do.

    4. Jay,

      I'm sorry if I came off as being preachy to you. I didn't mean to be preachy to you.

      I was just being mindful -- I was in a mindful state of mind before I read your comment, and I was in a mindful state of mind while I was reading your comment -- and I wanted to help. I wanted to make things better. But it's hard for me to do what will make things better. It's difficult for me to not do anything that causes harm and to do what's skillful (what's beneficial). But I strive to not do anything that causes harm and to do what's skillful (what's beneficial).

      And, I appreciate you very much.


    5. Don't worry about it, Dan. No harm, my friend!

      I'm going off this stuff for a little bit tomorrow anyway, while I work on my "when basketball was Jewish" diary. The Philadelphia SPHAs need to be more well-known.


    6. Jay, I love that subject! I'm already looking forward to reading it. Red Klotz rocks :) Oh...wait, is he the bad guy for killing the Sphas? (I saw him play!)

    7. Nobody who played point guard at the age of 62 can ever be a bad guy! ;)

    8. And still one of the three greatest basketball coaches ever named Red. (He also might have been the worst.) And all Jewish. Coincidental? I don't think so :)

    9. Oh my G-d.

      The world is going to hell in a hand-basket and they're talking about basketball.

      Why is it that I am virtually the only one participating on these political blogs that makes the least little bit of sense?

      Why is that, anyways?

      I mean, sure, I am far and away much more intelligent than most people who spout their poisonous gibberish on-line but, really, must the disparity be quite this gaping??


      Well, I guess I'll just have to learn to live with my natural superiority.

    10. I know!

      It's not easy being cursed with this kind of heart-breaking insight.

      Now, didn't you tell me that your brother played pro-b ball or semi-pro or something?

    11. Basketball is the Great Escape! I've gotta get to a couple two or three Temple games this season...

    12. I'm looking forward to this one, too, Jay.

      I hope that you'll cross-post it here.

    13. Jay, I hope you know the historical connection between the Sphas and Temple basketball. Shouldn't skip that one.

    14. Thanks, will certainly post here! I think I'm gonna take a few weeks with it, maybe even make a few research trips into the library. Why not? While I still have the time for such things for another month or so, I may as well write something definitive!