The Right loves Israel. As long as its wiped out (2+ / 0-)
in the End Times Apocalypse. Lots of good PR value until then.
by DrTerwilliker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 at 10:23:30 AM PST
Evangelical Christians are probably the best friends that Israel has in the entire world, with the sole exception of diaspora Jews.
Progressives, who generally do not like Israel to begin with, always tell one another (and us) that our friends are our enemies and even we have come to believe it.
The truth is that within the progressive-left boundaries of hatred Evangelical Christians are considered fair game. In places like Daily Kos you can spit hatred at Evangelical Christians just like you can spit hatred at the Jewish state. Both are considered open to any kind of slander or defamation that anyone might like to dream up.
I find it grotesque and we should be sending letters to leading Evangelical figures thanking them for their support of Israel. We do not have to agree with everything that the Evangelical movement stands for in order to acknowledge and appreciate their friendship with Israel.
What we mustn't do, however, is buy into the lie that the Evangelicals are supportive of Israel for nefarious reasons. They are not.
I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up around a fair number of evangelicals, and they were small time, small minded, often antisemitic fuckwads.ReplyDelete
Not antisemitic in the sense of the Loony Left - they never heard of the Khazar Hoax or anything like that - but antisemitic in the sense of "Aren't you afraid of going to hell, fizziks?" and "Fizziks, why doesn't your family celebrate Thanksgiving?" (the later was asked by my second grade teacher, no lie) and of course, a hundred variants on "I shouldn't have to say 'Happy Holidays', it's 'Merry Christmas', damnit!!"
Now maybe those people weren't representative of Evangelicals as a whole across the nation. But in my experience it is very hard for me to associate evangelical with friend. At the very least they want to make me, an athiest Jew, have to pray in school and at work, and do other ridiculous things. I do appreciate their support for Israel, but I can't help but suspect it is partially due to something other than just general goodness.
I was raised to respect people's religious beliefs even if they were different than mine. I believe in freedom of (and from) religion and respect. I believe that is a prudent, liberal sane way to look at things.ReplyDelete
The insane hatred and paranoia spewed at dKos and elsewhere towards these groups is mindboggling given what I thought was pretty universal way of viewing religions for those who call themselves liberals.
Therefore I am led to believe that almost no one at dKos could be called a Liberal or a progressive because no one EVER defends these groups. It's hate and disdain all the way down and all the way up.
I will not stray into the matter of Christian support for Israel.ReplyDelete
I will say that I find it odd that people who claim to care about others can so easily tarnish those that disagree, quite inhumanely, whether Christian or Jew or neocon or whatever. They tell us how bad the other side is, yet I don't see much difference sometimes when it comes to conduct.
Here's an example:
In other words, why should the fact that others behave badly justify one's own bad behavior?ReplyDelete
Agreed oldschool altho I can also see where fizzicks experience could forever taint his perceptions.ReplyDelete
Even religion aside, Kossacks and their ilk do an awful lot of hating directed at any and every sundry group who isn't part of the team it seems. If it's not Israel, it's Christians or the police or Wall Street or Social Services or this or that bla bla bla bla to infinity.
Yeah. I wrote a diary about all this just today.ReplyDelete
I do not doubt anyone's experience either.
Like was said, the world is antisemitic and always has been.
The world is anti-Semitic, school?ReplyDelete
I don't believe that, dude.
You honestly think so?
What does that even mean, exactly? That a majority of the world's population does not like Jews?
Come on, you can't be serious.
Or am I misunderstanding your meaning.
Maybe you should be more clear about yours because I do not understand the tone.ReplyDelete
Yes, I honestly think it's so.
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to fully embrace Evangelicial support of Israel...when some also support destruction of the wall between religion and state, the unabashed invasion of a woman's right to privacy, support the legal rights of the unborn to the detriment to the already born, the legalization and institutionalization of discrimination against the GLBT community, the terrorist activities of anti-abortion groups....I could go on. How can I be supportive of a group that not only allows, but actively supports such hatred within it's ranks?ReplyDelete
the reason that you can accept the Evangelicals, given their flaws, is because the progressives are just as bad.
The progressives have sold gay people, women, and Jews down deh ribber.
The progressives do not care about 5.5 million dead in the Congo or the hundreds of thousands dead in Darfur.
Nor do they care about rape as a weapon of war in that conflict.
The fact of the matter is that the Evangelical movement is liberalizing over time. They are becoming more concerned about the environment and as the younger ones gain power, less interested in Gay issues or in maintaining domination over women.
Let us not be so quick to get on our high horses, eh?
Let us not be so bigoted and hate-filled to a large bloc of our fellow Americans.
Let us have a liberal attitude toward them.
I know you well enough to know that you are not a hater. So, why hate on them?
We should befriend them and serve as an example on the very issues that you raise.
Sorry Karma, that was a little bit tongue in cheek. I don't hate anybody. I do sometimes hate policies. I am opposed to the positions they hold on the things i've lised, and I am bit leery of their support for Israel, but I don't hate them.ReplyDelete
I think if you replace Evangelicals with the progressive left, and a few other words, then the paragraph I wrote is pretty close to what you've said about Democrats. Sarcastic slap if you will.
I'm not quite as emotionally involved, but I do think policies promoted by some Evangelicals is just as hateful as those promoted by those that oppose the very existence of Israel.
Fair enough, S.ReplyDelete
There are a couple of things going on here.
One is that I appreciate the fact that they appreciate Israel. That is very important and is a big part of the reason that I find myself kindly disposed toward the Evangelicals, although I disagree with so many of them on so much.
But, also, I do recognize the changing nature of that community. I am not fully versed on what is going on with them, but I do understand that they are slowly liberalizing and I applaud that.
It's also just a matter of strategery.
I've thrown the traditional Jewish liberal political paradigm into the dumpster. It's time to throw away old assumptions that may no longer really help us.
Those of us who are willing to sort-of work on shifting the paradigm... massaging it, playing with it, seeing what we can come up with... need to be aware of earlier pitfalls, such as the neocon model, but that does not mean, as I hope that you agree, that we must remain slaves to the Democratic Party.
We are free I tell you!
Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty.
We are free at last.
Good for us.
I'd love for there to be an alternative to the Democratic party. They suck. But they suck a lot less than Republicans. Including that which is related to Israel.ReplyDelete
Slowly liberalizing? I guess it's possible. I'll believe it when they support same sex marriage. When they support a woman's right to privacy. When they stand with me when I oppose a giant cross on public property. So yeah, it's possible.
I think you either missed my point or ignored the part where I suggested that Evengelicals are exactly the same to the Republican party as Anti-Israel anti-semites are to the Democratic party. And for you, one is worthy of abandonement. The other is worthy of embracing. I don't get that.
Iranian nukes: Bad.
Solution: None that are attractive.
Are elected Dems coming out in favor of Iranian nukes? I haven't seen it.
But on the larger point...I think you've been attempting to lay out an argument for Jews leaving the Democratic party based on a logical set of guidelines. Your willingness to accept Evangelicals as part of an alliance belies your logical argument against supporting Democrats.
The heart of your argument is really that Republicans are better for Israel than Democrats and nothing else matters. Is that not so? (I don't think it's true, by the way.)